TBTC Testing

[d7666]

Nov 23, 2010 21:22:50 GMT @sw206 said:

I heard that the 96 stock run in 'full performance' mode under TBTC as well. Does anyone know exactly what the difference is? Is it top speed increase or what? They are pretty quick off the mark in normal mode, so other than ATO 'efficiencies' what else changes?
I read somewhere the 95 stock on the Northern is only running at 60% power too - is this also going to have a performance increase when TBTC finally gets installed on the Northern too? I don't think the Jubilee track 'line speed' will increase, just perhaps the ability to get trains to a higher speed more quickly with the 'performance' increase.

Indeed thats more or less it.

Traction packs are current limited. Once TBTC is in and fully working, there is a post TBTC stage that uncaps them. Cutting out a lot of maths and physics, more current = higher acceleration, and corresponding uplift in regen braking for deceleration.

It was called stage J6 at one time, following J5 TBTC Dollis Hill - Stanmore; I don't know if the terms still apply. I did once see a whole list of proposed dates and proposed WTT numbers for all this but JNUP has drifted so far it would be all out of date anyway.

It is important to remember that is is not just TBTC alone that reduces headway to increase TPH, TBTC permits traction and braking capability beyond clockwork signalling.

Similar proposals apply to Northern line.

--
Nick

[Deleted]

Any TBTC this weekend?

[DWS]

Nov 26, 2010 22:27:18 GMT @cj said:

Any TBTC this weekend?

No

[Deleted]

Possible TBTC action next weekend Stratford to West Hampstead or Willesden I think, although too early to tell if this will happen or if its rumour mill again. Saying that, recent gossip has been pretty well spot on!

[littlebrute]

Quick question, why would only the Dollis Hill - Stratford section be operating TBTC in weekday service soon?

[Deleted]

Nov 29, 2010 23:50:31 GMT littlebrute said:

Quick question, why would only the Dollis Hill - Stratford section be operating TBTC in weekday service soon?

Probably something to do with Neasden, at a guess.

[Deleted]

See here for explanation

Basically this is thanks to Tube Lines trying to save some costs and make original deadline in 2009 (unsuccessfully).
Originally they were going to convert Jubilee to new signalling in 4 steps: first Stratford to Canary Wharf, then Canary Wharf to Westminster, then Westminster to Dollis Hill, and finally Dollis Hill to Stanmore. However to speed up the process (to meet the deadline) they started merging the sections together so that they would be converted all at once and ended up with massive stretch of Stratford to Dollis Hill - which turned out to be a huge mistake as there was no way to isolate the inevitable problems on a small(er) stretch of the line anymore.

And now, with Tube Lines being history I'd imagine LUL have to continue the existing plan - but with more testing in advance (hopefully).

[Deleted]

Nov 22, 2010 4:08:50 GMT @mildlyinteresting said:

Having said that when it works it does seem to be a very good system. Seeing three trains each a cars length apart on the Northbound approach to West Hampstead certainly got some interested / puzzled looks from passengers on the Met trains running passed.

On the DLR, the Seltrac safety distance (i.e distance that a train can close in to the train in front or points set against it) is 50m. I would doubt that the Jubilee Line implementation of Seltrac would have a shorter safety distance.

[Chris M]

When being driven in manual mode, DLR trains can be much closer together than this.
A couple of weeks back there was a train that failed somewhere in the vicinity of East India station. After the evening peak another two-car unit was sent to rescue it. As I was walking back from the bus stop after a particularly hellish journey on the 474 from Canning Town I happened to see a three car train being followed very closely by a single car unit traversing the viaduct between Cyprus and Gallions Reach stations at walking pace (I got the impression that it was the coupling between the units of the failed train that was suspect). At their closest they were about 10 metres apart at most.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2010 16:46:25 GMT Chris M said:

When being driven in manual mode, DLR trains can be much closer together than this.
A couple of weeks back there was a train that failed somewhere in the vicinity of East India station. After the evening peak another two-car unit was sent to rescue it. As I was walking back from the bus stop after a particularly hellish journey on the 474 from Canning Town I happened to see a three car train being followed very closely by a single car unit traversing the viaduct between Cyprus and Gallions Reach stations at walking pace (I got the impression that it was the coupling between the units of the failed train that was suspect). At their closest they were about 10 metres apart at most.

That would be restricted manual, with no safeguards other than speed, rather than protected manual.

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2010 12:01:24 GMT futurix said:

See here for explanation

Basically this is thanks to Tube Lines trying to save some costs and make original deadline in 2009 (unsuccessfully).
Originally they were going to convert Jubilee to new signalling in 4 steps: first Stratford to Canary Wharf, then Canary Wharf to Westminster, then Westminster to Dollis Hill, and finally Dollis Hill to Stanmore. However to speed up the process (to meet the deadline) they started merging the sections together so that they would be converted all at once and ended up with massive stretch of Stratford to Dollis Hill - which turned out to be a huge mistake as there was no way to isolate the inevitable problems on a small(er) stretch of the line anymore.

And now, with Tube Lines being history I'd imagine LUL have to continue the existing plan - but with more testing in advance (hopefully).

Since when has Tube Lines been history? They still exist as before, just different people calling the shots on the upgrade and as far as I can tell carrying on with the same approach and attitude of switching it on as soon as possible.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2010 22:13:00 GMT @sw206 said:

Since when has Tube Lines been history? They still exist as before, just different people calling the shots on the upgrade and as far as I can tell carrying on with the same approach and attitude of switching it on as soon as possible.

Since TfL bought them out not all that long ago...

[Deleted]

But they still exist and are run as a seperate company still on a performance related contract as if nothing has changed. Tfl may be 100% share holders, but nobody in Tube Lines works directly for Tfl, they work for Tube Lines on the same terms and conditions as before. The only difference is a handful of people making the decisions on the upgrade, but nothing in the approach seems to have changed either.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2010 20:57:02 GMT @sw206 said:

But they still exist and are run as a seperate company still on a performance related contract as if nothing has changed. Tfl may be 100% share holders, but nobody in Tube Lines works directly for Tfl, they work for Tube Lines on the same terms and conditions as before. The only difference is a handful of people making the decisions on the upgrade, but nothing in the approach seems to have changed either.

I can't see it staying that way for long, like Metronet.

[Ben]

Metronet took quite a while though before it was properly absorbed and reorganised. Well longer than it possibly could have been done.

[Deleted]

There could be more TBTC action this weekend I understand with a 'normal' service running, so all trains in TBTC Stratford to Dollis Hill and then Trip-cock to Stanmore.

[londonstuff]

Dec 7, 2010 18:22:29 GMT @sw206 said:

There could be more TBTC action this weekend I understand with a 'normal' service running, so all trains in TBTC Stratford to Dollis Hill and then Trip-cock to Stanmore.

Does that mean the blue aspect, for trains ex-Stanmore and at Dollis Hill is operational, giving the indication that it's okay to proceed in TBTC mode?

Any pictures anywhere?

[Deleted]

If TBTC is running you will see Blue aspects at Dollis on the southbound starter, and at Baker Street on the southbound starter. The only other Blues are on the depot exits at Stratford I believe. The other giveaway is all the old signals are bagged up. Haven't seen a picture anywhere though.

[londonstuff]

Dec 7, 2010 21:10:50 GMT @sw206 said:

If TBTC is running you will see Blue aspects at Dollis on the southbound starter, and at Baker Street on the southbound starter. The only other Blues are on the depot exits at Stratford I believe. The other giveaway is all the old signals are bagged up. Haven't seen a picture anywhere though.

I might try and get a photo of that on the way up to Chesham on Saturday then
</challenge>

[Deleted]

TBTC was clearly in public use today, presumably between Dollis Hill and Stratford. And "severe delays" ... first a "faulty train" at Green Park, then another at London Bridge ... The entire southbound service was stopped for at least 15 minutes around 15:00m then again later, passengers advised to use other routes.

I hope useful lessons are being learned from this debacle; the system seems nowhere near fit for purpose. But on the plus side, the power is clearly there – noticeably higher speeds, particularly from West Hampstead to Kilburn, must have hit nearly 60.

[Deleted]

I used the jubilee Bond St. to Waterloo earlier - bloody hell it's fast!
The trains were non-stopping Green Park for some reason, too.

I'm not at all suprised about the delays. Tube Lines really did screw up.

[Deleted]

We're about to go along for the evening, at lunchtime there was a "broken down train" at Westminster which had split things into two sections, this afternoon is described above, and as I look now there is a "faulty train" at Canary Wharf. I would go by DLR were that not all closed at Canning Town this weekend.

Presumably sticking the blame on the poor old trains is the new signal engineers way of diverting attention from what they have done that doesn't work. Aren't those of you who work on the line wondering when you will have the first day with normality?

[Deleted]

Who can remember back to the early 90's when this same system was introduced on DLR? It was just a bad there for some time, so I don't really think it is Tube Lines' fault, I would say it is more Thales to blame, but it's just the nature of this complex software based system being problematic in its first year or so of operation.
DLR eventually settled down to be what is it today, but it still has bad days.
I think that once the decision was made to go with this system and there is no going back, we will all just have to put up with it being troublesome for some months to come.

[Deleted]

The system on the DLR is meant to be the same/similar to the one being tested on the Jubilee right? Presumably, any problems which affected the DLR before had been rectified or lessons from its implementations had been taken on board.

What kind of differences are there on the Jubilee line which has made this system appear to cause so many difficulties?

Just speculating, but I presume if the Northern line is to be upgraded to something similar, the experience of deploying the system on the Jubilee will mean it will be a much more trouble-free transition, because some implementation issues will have been identified and rectified. Yes?

[Deleted]

It is the same, and it appears lessons don't get learnt from project to project. The Underground looks like it has come up with many new challenges that were not experienced on DLR - not really surprising as DLR is new and is typical of the kind of system that the Seltrac system has been installed on before. But that is why I think Thales are to blame - they are the designer, installer and testers, and I can't believe that many of the issues have not been seen elsewhere before.
Admittantly access to the railway must be 100 times more difficult to get the job done than it has been elsewhere as typically this system only gets installed on 'new' railway. DLR though had to run numerous weekends of testing, with a replacement bus service running as well until the system was good enough to go it alone. And then it was always going wrong for months.
Northern is getting exactly the same system as Jubilee, but as the same people are involved in the project which is called the 'Jubilee and Northern Upgrade Project' I would imagine lessons would be learnt for this - it can't be any worse surely?

[londonstuff]

Caught up with the TBTC signal at Dolis Hill today, but it took ages for the system to verify the train, needing an engineer at the front of the train, quite a few 'I dunno's' from inside, opening and closing the doors and resetting the on-board whatever it is.

Anyway, blue aspects below:



And magnified slightly:

[Deleted]

Not sure if this is true, but the reason i was told for the problems is the nature of LU's power delivery i.e the fourth rail. Apparently Seltrac has never been installed on a system that uses two power rails and they have struggled with the interference it has caused. I'm not that close to anyone official on the Jubilee that can confirm this.

Just as an aside I see that a by product of this testing is the failure of the depature boards on the Tfl website.

[Deleted]

Well, in the end we chickened out and just took the Jubilee Line from Canning Town just to Stratford, then Central Line into the West End, and walked the last bit. Do anything more than the minimum amount of the Jubilee with the New Signals Comedy Stageshow in full spate? Now I may be silly, but I'm not THAT silly.

We were put off at the start by looking at the TfL website, and seeing the "Live Departure Boards" were showing nothing for any of our stations. I think the trains might have been running, just another bit of the technology that doesn't work. Likewise on the way home the sign for the next train at Stratford directed us to platform 13, with a train closed up and leaving empty to the depot, so we had to walk back and start again. Presumably all this information works from the signals. Hello team, it's not just getting the train signals working that is part of the project.

Dreadful long intervals between trains, 10 minutes or more seemed to be the norm. Not surprising when you see the bulk of the fleet all parked in the depot at Stratford. When are we going to even attempt to run at the normal intervals? And when are we going to practice rush hour intervals, clearing people away from Waterloo in the morning or Canary Wharf in the evening?

On our return journey, when our train arrived at Stratford a huge crowd got out, it must have been an age since the previous one, it was like 5.30 on a weekday.

Some polite little notices were displayed from the management, apologising (well, sort-of) for the long intervals between trains (although not for all the breakdowns) and saying it will all be much better soon. Yeah yeah yeah, where have we heard that one before. Do you know, I actually have some sympathy for the Manager Jubilee Line, he really has been dealt the short straw by those above him at 55 Broadway. I am sure the original perpetrators of this fiasco have long since left the scene and it is just a case of picking up the pieces. I wonder if he will get an OBE for Services to an Inept Top Management.

Someone wrote above the trains this weekend were faster than before. Well, maybe in the tunnels, but not on our bit - really slow entry to Canning Town, and the same going into Stratford, from way before the station, in fact even from before the penultimate Stratford Market station on the new DLR line being built alongside. And the delayed opening of the doors at stations, several seconds between stopping and the doors opening, is still there as has always been the case with the new signals.

I see that this morning, Sunday, all the western end of the line is out of service yet again because of yet another "broken down train at Dollis Hill". In fact since I started writing a "signal failure at Willesden Green" has also popped up as well.

Another weekend of failure. I still reckon it won't be finished by the 2012 Olympics.

[londonstuff]

Dec 12, 2010 10:49:05 GMT @diana said:

Well, in the end we chickened out and just took the Jubilee Line from Canning Town just to Stratford, then Central Line into the West End, and walked the last bit. Do anything more than the minimum amount of the Jubilee with the New Signals Comedy Stageshow in full spate? Now I may be silly, but I'm not THAT silly.

We were put off at the start by looking at the TfL website, and seeing the "Live Departure Boards" were showing nothing for any of our stations. I think the trains might have been running, just another bit of the technology that doesn't work. Likewise on the way home the sign for the next train at Stratford directed us to platform 13, with a train closed up and leaving empty to the depot, so we had to walk back and start again. Presumably all this information works from the signals. Hello team, it's not just getting the train signals working that is part of the project.

Dreadful long intervals between trains, 10 minutes or more seemed to be the norm. Not surprising when you see the bulk of the fleet all parked in the depot at Stratford. When are we going to even attempt to run at the normal intervals? And when are we going to practice rush hour intervals, clearing people away from Waterloo in the morning or Canary Wharf in the evening?

On our return journey, when our train arrived at Stratford a huge crowd got out, it must have been an age since the previous one, it was like 5.30 on a weekday.

Some polite little notices were displayed from the management, apologising (well, sort-of) for the long intervals between trains (although not for all the breakdowns) and saying it will all be much better soon. Yeah yeah yeah, where have we heard that one before. Do you know, I actually have some sympathy for the Manager Jubilee Line, he really has been dealt the short straw by those above him at 55 Broadway. I am sure the original perpetrators of this fiasco have long since left the scene and it is just a case of picking up the pieces. I wonder if he will get an OBE for Services to an Inept Top Management.

Someone wrote above the trains this weekend were faster than before. Well, maybe in the tunnels, but not on our bit - really slow entry to Canning Town, and the same going into Stratford, from way before the station, in fact even from before the penultimate Stratford Market station on the new DLR line being built alongside. And the delayed opening of the doors at stations, several seconds between stopping and the doors opening, is still there as has always been the case with the new signals.

I see that this morning, Sunday, all the western end of the line is out of service yet again because of yet another "broken down train at Dollis Hill". In fact since I started writing a "signal failure at Willesden Green" has also popped up as well.

Another weekend of failure. I still reckon it won't be finished by the 2012 Olympics.

I must admit that from what I saw both at Green Park and Dolis Hill yesterday (Green Park Jub being completely closed) and then at Dolis Hill the Train Op and a technician not having a clue why the train wasn't making the TBTC signal clear - they just doing random resets to try to get it going (fair do on the Train Op, that's not part of his job).

Although you and v3.1 are about the only ones to vent your anger on here, judging by what I saw yesterday, I really do feel sorry for you - you've had the rough end of the deal, especially with DLR and work on the east end of the District going on at the same time. What you express here is entirely justified.

I wouldn't bet against it not being ready for the Olympics either.

[Chris M]

Dec 11, 2010 18:32:17 GMT @diana said:

Presumably sticking the blame on the poor old trains is the new signal engineers way of diverting attention from what they have done that doesn't work. Aren't those of you who work on the line wondering when you will have the first day with normality?

As I understand the new signalling system (which I admit I don't very well), what used to be done with lineside signals is now being done onboard the trains. If so then the line between a failure of the train and a failure of the signalling system will be much blurred in comparison to traditionally-operated lines.
For example is a failure of communication between the train-bourne box that receives the signals about the position of other trains and the train-bourne box that controlls the train movement a "broken down train" or a "signal failure"?
What if a train stops because it isn't receiving details of where the train in front is because the train in front isn't transmitting those details, even though it's proceding at full speed as it's receiving the info about the train in front of it?