West Kensington (WB, WC)

[Deleted]

Why does West Kensington have separate codes for the West and East IMRs?

I always figured that one of the IMRs was commissioned a longish while after the other and that at the time it was deemed simpler to use separate codes for separate IMRs. Either that or East IMR was named such because it contained the interlocking for the single lead junction at Olympia.

[Tom]

My understanding is because it was originally two separate cabins, unlike for example Acton Town which was one cabin but became two IMRs.

[Deleted]

That makes sense - the layout of the site would make two cabins a good operational flexibility.

Why was the junction at Olympia removed, anyway? It makes the East IMR somewhat redundant.

[q8]

There were two boxes in the area. West Kensington East which controlled the olympia main junction at the tunnel mouths and Lillie Bridge yard. West Kensington West Controlled the X-over at the station and all the sidings between W Ken and Barons court and access to and from West Kensington Yard via the west London lne at Brompton. Harsig could tell you much more.

[Deleted]

q8 said:

There were two boxes in the area. West Kensington East which controlled the olympia main junction at the tunnel mouths and Lillie Bridge yard. West Kensington West Controlled the X-over at the station and all the sidings between W Ken and Barons court and access to and from West Kensington Yard to and from the west London lne at Brompton. Harsig could tell you much more.

Thanks Q8 - as I expected a pair of cabins would have been desirable for a layout as complex as this.

[Harsig]

q8 said:

There were two boxes in the area. West Kensington East which controlled the olympia main junction at the tunnel mouths and Lillie Bridge yard. West Kensington West Controlled the X-over at the station and all the sidings between W Ken and Barons court and access to and from West Kensington Yard via the west London lne at Brompton. Harsig could tell you much more.

Nothing like a challenge. A little bit of research on the internet has turned up the following:

The original signalboxes at West Kensington were West Kensington (Staton) and West Kensington (Midland) Junction. West Kensington West (cabin code WC) opened on 28th October 1906 presumably in connection with the opening of the Piccadilly Line, and the two original boxes closed on 30th May 1908 and were replaced by West Kensington East (cabin code WC) which opened the following day. West Kensington West became remotely controlled from West Kensington East from 1st July 1934.
West Kensington East closed on 2nd October 1948, being replaced by a new signalbox of the same name and cabin code immediately next door. The new cabin retained remote control of West Kensington West.
West Kensington West closed on 14th April 1962, being replaced by two IMRs from the following day. These were West Kensington West IMR (code WC) and Baron's Court IMR (code WC). From this date these IMRs were supervised from Earls Court.
West Kensington East cabin finally closed on 9th May 1970, being replaced by West Kensington East IMR (code WB) supervised from Earls Court.
Following the removal of all the points and connections controlled by Barons Court IMR it has since been reduced to the status of relay room and no longer carries a cabin code.

[Deleted]

Slightly O/T, but I believe looking at the platform features West Ken once had 4 platforms, can someone confirm this.

[q8]

Slightly O/T, but I believe looking at the platform features West Ken once had 4 platforms, can someone confirm this.
*********************************************

What you see Jim is an "intention" It was once mooted that the exit from the former Piccadilly line dept at Lillie Bridge would be routed behind the eastbound platform under the roadway and connect with what was then the eastbound Piccadilly between Barons Court and W Ken.

This was in the days when the Picc terminated in the two northernmost platforms at Hammersmith. In those times the District was the sole user of the southern island platform at both Baron's Court and Hammersmith and the Piccadilly the northern islands.

I have never seen a track layout of the W Ken/Baron's Ct/Hammersmith area at that time (cue Harsig to post one if he has one) but I was once told that BOTH District roads were to the south of the Piccadilly line tunnel exit ramp.

When the Piccadilly extension was under discussion one of the ideas examined was to retain the layout and the Picc extension was to use the two northernmost pair of tracks all the way to Richmond with a branch to Hounslow west of there

Gunnersbury in those days had island platforms and the line south of Kew Gardens had space for four tracks as well and it was proposed that the Piccadilly were segregated into their own pair of rails all the way to Richmond from Turnham Green with a branch to Hounslow west of there. The island platform at Chiswick Park would have been retained with only District trains stopping. Trackage west of Acton town would have remained segregated with both District tracks using the present westbound embankment at Acton town and the Piccadilly going under the overbridge at the top. This would have obviated the need for the four tracking to Northfields

Some of the infrastructure was actually built I.E. the two underpass's beneath the westbound embankment between Turnham Green and Chiswick Park and the clearing of greenery between Gunnersbury and Richmond. A start was even made on widening the embankments on both sides of the river between Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens but did not get far.

I think (but am not sure) that there used to be visible evidence of a second arch at the long overbridge at the start of the curve into Richmond south of Kew.

The whole scheme would have resulted in completely separate District and Piccadilly lines West Of Baron's Court with the District only having the Ealing/Uxbridge lines and the Piccadilly the Richmond/Hounslow ones.

Either way the Scheme would have cost but I bet today's management would love have the two railways separate .

[Deleted]

harsig said:

q8 said:

There were two boxes in the area. West Kensington East which controlled the olympia main junction at the tunnel mouths and Lillie Bridge yard. West Kensington West Controlled the X-over at the station and all the sidings between W Ken and Barons court and access to and from West Kensington Yard via the west London lne at Brompton. Harsig could tell you much more.

Nothing like a challenge. A little bit of research on the internet has turned up the following:

The original signalboxes at West Kensington were West Kensington (Staton) and West Kensington (Midland) Junction. West Kensington West (cabin code WC) opened on 28th October 1906 presumably in connection with the opening of the Piccadilly Line, and the two original boxes closed on 30th May 1908 and were replaced by West Kensington East (cabin code WC) which opened the following day. West Kensington West became remotely controlled from West Kensington East from 1st July 1934.
West Kensington East closed on 2nd October 1948, being replaced by a new signalbox of the same name and cabin code immediately next door. The new cabin retained remote control of West Kensington West.
West Kensington West closed on 14th April 1962, being replaced by two IMRs from the following day. These were West Kensington West IMR (code WC) and Baron's Court IMR (code WC). From this date these IMRs were supervised from Earls Court.
West Kensington East cabin finally closed on 9th May 1970, being replaced by West Kensington East IMR (code WB) supervised from Earls Court.
Following the removal of all the points and connections controlled by Barons Court IMR it has since been reduced to the status of relay room and no longer carries a cabin code.

Thanks Harsig!

I am curious though as to why West Kensington West was replaced with two IMRs - did that cabin really control enough signalling that two separate IMRs were needed to fit it all in?

[trainopd78]

On the DVD Piccadilly line past and present, There is a lovely old clip from the 20's of a DR train travelling from West Ken to Barons court. Both DR tracks were to the south of the tunnel approach with the southern island platform at Barons Court handling DR services.

The tracks north of the ramp look like they were used for stabling. There was also the signal box over the tracks on the ramp too. Interesting viewing. Think cabin code was WC.

[Harsig]

trainopd78 said:

. There was also the signal box over the tracks on the ramp too. Interesting viewing. Think cabin code was WC.

This was the erstwhile West Kensington West, code WC mentioned above opened 1906 and closed 1962.

[Harsig]

q8 said:

I have never seen a track layout of the W Ken/Baron's Ct/Hammersmith area at that time (cue Harsig to post one if he has one) but I was once told that BOTH District roads were to the south of the Piccadilly line tunnel exit ramp.

All I have from the time is a very poor quality photocopy of a sketch of the track layout. I've redrawn it as best I can but cannot guarantee its accuracy, particularly immediately east of Barons Court Station where it is almost impossible to make out the track layout on the photocopy. My new sketch can be seen here

www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/HMBCWK.pdf

[Deleted]

the east IMR in liilie bridge depot hasnt got that many spare levers as there is alot of signals around the depot and it also controls west ken east junction its the west IMR which is more or less reduntant it has alot of spare levers but the weird thing is the control cables from earls court go into the west IMR and then the nessecary's go over to the east IMR. its a bit of a pig of site unless u know your WB's from your WC's and half the platform area is control from one IMR and the other half from the other IMR it is very confussing

[Deleted]

Dare I ask if Harsig has a signal map of Lillie Bridge?

[q8]

My new sketch can be seen here

www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/HMBCWK.pdf[/quote]
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I should think that is about right Harsig but according to info I got in the sixties where the words "West Kensington" are above the platform were the intended new route for the northern depot outlet road to connect with the siding west of the road bridge. (Never built as the road viaduct was built first)

The outlets you have marked as "To Lillie Bridge" at bottom right were to "West Kensington Yard" Although I believe that there were connections from West Kens Yard to Lillie Bridge. These connection could only get to Lillie bridge via the West London line as Lillie Bridge was at a higher elevation than WK Yard

I am not trying to contradict Harsigs document just adding the info I got many years ago.

West Kens Yard was also the termination point of the "Blackmans Express's" from Turnham Green.

[Harsig]

theonekea said:

Dare I ask if Harsig has a signal map of Lillie Bridge?

Since you asked nicely here are the 1970 arrangements

www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/WBWC1970.jpg (778KB)

[Deleted]

harsig said:

theonekea said:

Dare I ask if Harsig has a signal map of Lillie Bridge?

Since you asked nicely here are the 1970 arrangements

www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/WBWC1970.jpg (778KB)

Thanks Harsig!

I guess you really do have diagrams of everything on the Underground...

[Deleted]

EDIT:

Well, having had a look at it, I have a few queries:

1. I find it rather surprising that the bay at Olympia never had a signal protecting the junction! Did WB7 do double-duty as the advanced starter for trains entering LU metals and trains leaving the bay?

2. Why are some of the symbols denoting the signals printed in reverse contrast to the others?

3. Many of the signals in both WB and WC are slotted by counterparts within each IMR; why was this done on such a scale?

4. Was WB commisioned at the same time as Northfields (WR)? I noticed that WB5^A and WB5^B are set up in the same way as WR32^A and WR32^B, the w/b local starter/shunt combo at Northfields.

5. Why was the trailing crossover at Barons Court ever installed?

6. Is track R long enough for a District train? If it is, does that mean that District trains have occassionally been reversed via that track in situations when returning directly via the trailing crossover was not possible?

7. A pair of plungers are denoted next to WB27 and WB29 - what was their purpose?

[q8]

I'll try to answer for some of these and let Harsig correct if I am wrong.

Q1 = AFAIR WB7 did perform those tasks stated
Q2 = Over to Harsig
Q3 = Over to Harsig
Q4 = I think you'll find it was
Q5 = It was installed for quick reversal purposes for late running Wood Green shorts.
Q6 = I doubt it. In any case you would never see a District train on that track as it is within Lillie Bridge depot limits.
Q7 = To notify Earls Court that a train was ready for a move into the depot

[Harsig]

theonekea said:

EDIT:

Well, having had a look at it, I have a few queries:

1. I find it rather surprising that the bay at Olympia never had a signal protecting the junction! Did WB7 do double-duty as the advanced starter for trains entering LU metals and trains leaving the bay?

Remember that the crossover connecting the Olympia Branch to the West London line was controlled by a ground frame, and in common with many other ground frames will not have much in the way of signalling for moves made when the ground frame was in use, any such moves being made under the authority of hand signals from the operator of the ground frame who by definition will be on site.
The ground frame was released by the operation of a permission lever in Kensington South Signal Box and the operation of No 4 Ground Frame Release Lever in West Kensington East IMR.
Reading between the lines of the yellow peril the signalling was so arranged as to only allow movements between Lillie Bridge Depot and the West London Line. Should a train be admitted to the single line by passing signal WB5^B then it will not be possible to release the ground frame until that train has either entered Lillie Bridge Depot via signal WB28 or has occupied and cleared track circuit LF on its return journey to Earls Court.

2. Why are some of the symbols denoting the signals printed in reverse contrast to the others?

Those signals which are printed 'normally' are those controlled by West Kensington East IMR, the commissioning of which was the subject of the notice from which this diagram was taken. Those printed in reverse contrast are all the signals in adjacent areas which are largely unaffected by the alterations carried out in connection with the commissioning of the IMR.

3. Many of the signals in both WB and WC are slotted by counterparts within each IMR; why was this done on such a scale?

This is an inevitable consequence of having two IMRs in such close proximity with multiple signalled routes between them. In fact as far as I can see there are only three slot levers, WB35 in West Kensington East and WC1 & WC3 in West Kensington West

6. Is track R long enough for a District train? If it is, does that mean that District trains have occasionally been reversed via that track in situations when returning directly via the trailing crossover was not possible?

A train standing at signal WB30 (i.e. on R track circuit) cannot be reversed back onto the main line as there is no signal at the west end of R track circuit

7. A pair of plungers are denoted next to WB27 and WB29 - what was their purpose?

The following paragraphs from the yellow peril apply

H2.- If a train is required to shunt west of signal WB18 the following instructions must be followed:-
(a) the train must draw up to to signal WB18;
(b) the appropriate route setting plunger (for either route 2 or route 3) must then be operated;
(c) if all is in order for this to be done signal WB18 will then clear for the route required; and
(d) the train must proceed to the siding selected. Then when the train is required to return:
(e) the plunger at either signal WB27 or WB29, whichever is appropriate, must then be operated;
(f) if all is in order for this to be done the signal will then clear; and
(g) the train must draw forward to the stop board and await further instructions from the shunter.

H10.- Plunger at signal WB27
It is not necessary to operate the plunger at WB27 for train movements to Lillie Bridge depot from the Olympia Line.

Note that operation of the plungers causes the signal to clear immediately without any intervention of the signalman at Earls Court.

[Colin]

Something that's always bugged me on line diagrams - what does 'slotted' mean?

[piccadillypilot]

colin said:

Something that's always bugged me on line diagrams - what does 'slotted' mean?

It's a method used where it would be wrong to clear one signal whilst another is still on because it would give the driver a confusing message.

The easiest example is when you are approaching a starting signal at danger which has a distant on the same post for the next cabin/box and the distant is "on" even if its associated home signal is "off".

The signalman at the box in advance will have pulled the distant off but it is being held at caution by a mechanism on the signal post.

When the signalman controlling the stop signal you are standing at clears it, that will allow the distant to clear.

In electrically operated areas it's done by relays but the principle remains the same.

[Deleted]

WB 29 has not button in earls ct control room it purely works as a automatic but there is a lever for it in the east IMR

[russe]

www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/WBWC1970.jpg

Many thanks for that, Harsig. Are the 'speed inductors' implemented as spaced, short sections of positive conductor rail, as discussed here a while back? (can't remember the thread title).

Russ

[Harsig]

colin said:

Something that's always bugged me on line diagrams - what does 'slotted' mean?

In the context of London Underground slotted signals will only occur where two separate interlockings are located very close to each other, such that some of the signalled routes controlled by one interlocking conflicts with signalled routes controlled from the other interlocking.
The easiest way of understanding the method of operation is to assume that any slotted signal is controlled by two signal levers, one in each interlocking. For the signal to be clear both signal levers must be reversed. To take specific example, referring to the
www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/WBWC1970.jpg
diagram find signal WC32, the eastbound inner home at West Kensington. You will note that it is slotted by WB35. This means that for the signal to clear lever 32 in West Kensington West IMR must be reversed and lever 35 in West Kensington East IMR must also be reversed.
Where slotted signals exist the signal will carry the number of one of the levers along with the cabin code of the interlocking of this lever. The other lever is referred to as the Slot lever. Sometimes it doesn't make much difference which is which but in others one slot works on multiple signals in the other interlocking. This is the case with slot lever WB35 which acts not just on WC32 but also on all other signalled routes into the eastbound platform from the west.
When WB35 lever is reversed this mechanically locks the levers in West Kensington East IMR which control the signalled routes into the eastbound from the east and allows a route to be cleared into the eastbound from the west; which signals actually clear is determined by which levers are reversed in West Kensington West IMR.

[Deleted]

harsig said:

theonekea said:

EDIT:

Well, having had a look at it, I have a few queries:

1. I find it rather surprising that the bay at Olympia never had a signal protecting the junction! Did WB7 do double-duty as the advanced starter for trains entering LU metals and trains leaving the bay?

Remember that the crossover connecting the Olympia Branch to the West London line was controlled by a ground frame, and in common with many other ground frames will not have much in the way of signalling for moves made when the ground frame was in use, any such moves being made under the authority of hand signals from the operator of the ground frame who by definition will be on site.
The ground frame was released by the operation of a permission lever in Kensington South Signal Box and the operation of No 4 Ground Frame Release Lever in West Kensington East IMR.
Reading between the lines of the yellow peril the signalling was so arranged as to only allow movements between Lillie Bridge Depot and the West London Line. Should a train be admitted to the single line by passing signal WB5^B then it will not be possible to release the ground frame until that train has either entered Lillie Bridge Depot via signal WB28 or has occupied and cleared track circuit LF on its return journey to Earls Court.

Ahhhh. So after an incoming District train had locked No.4 lever in WB IMR by dropping track BV, no further signals would have been necessary to protect it from incoming traffic from the WLL. Similarly, I should think that WB5^B would be automagically locked by the reversal of No.4 lever and only able to be unlocked after track BV was raised and the lever returned to the frame, right?

harsig said:

theonekea said:

Those signals which are printed 'normally' are those controlled by West Kensington East IMR, the commissioning of which was the subject of the notice from which this diagram was taken. Those printed in reverse contrast are all the signals in adjacent areas which are largely unaffected by the alterations carried out in connection with the commissioning of the IMR.

Interesting - DD's symbol guide doesn't seem to mention this convention.

harsig said:

theonekea said:

This is an inevitable consequence of having two IMRs in such close proximity with multiple signalled routes between them. In fact as far as I can see there are only three slot levers, WB35 in West Kensington East and WC1 & WC3 in West Kensington West

aetearlscourt once said that WC1 was 'put over' by WB IMR during part of its interlocking diagnostic phase - how does that work?

harsig said:

theonekea said:

A train standing at signal WB30 (i.e. on R track circuit) cannot be reversed back onto the main line as there is no signal at the west end of R track circuit

Whoops, misread the diragram

harsig said:

theonekea said:

The following paragraphs from the yellow peril apply

H2.- If a train is required to shunt west of signal WB18 the following instructions must be followed:-
(a) the train must draw up to to signal WB18;
(b) the appropriate route setting plunger (for either route 2 or route 3) must then be operated;
(c) if all is in order for this to be done signal WB18 will then clear for the route required; and
(d) the train must proceed to the siding selected. Then when the train is required to return:
(e) the plunger at either signal WB27 or WB29, whichever is appropriate, must then be operated;
(f) if all is in order for this to be done the signal will then clear; and
(g) the train must draw forward to the stop board and await further instructions from the shunter.

H10.- Plunger at signal WB27
It is not necessary to operate the plunger at WB27 for train movements to Lillie Bridge depot from the Olympia Line.

Note that operation of the plungers causes the signal to clear immediately without any intervention of the signalman at Earls Court.

Thanks!

Another query: WB19 has a control panel called "Train No. Selection Switches and Push Button". Was this an input system into the TD kit in WB IMR, similar to the setup at Parsons Green (WF), that allowed the motormen to input their train numbers for the programme machines to digest?

[Deleted]

EDIT:

harsig said:

In the context of London Underground slotted signals will only occur where two separate interlockings are located very close to each other, such that some of the signalled routes controlled by one interlocking conflicts with signalled routes controlled from the other interlocking.
The easiest way of understanding the method of operation is to assume that any slotted signal is controlled by two signal levers, one in each interlocking. For the signal to be clear both signal levers must be reversed. To take specific example, referring to the
www.geocities.com/idsmesig/Signals/WBWC1970.jpg
diagram find signal WC32, the eastbound inner home at West Kensington. You will note that it is slotted by WB35. This means that for the signal to clear lever 32 in West Kensington West IMR must be reversed and lever 35 in West Kensington East IMR must also be reversed.

This is a logical AND operation, right?

harsig said:

Where slotted signals exist the signal will carry the number of one of the levers along with the cabin code of the interlocking of this lever. The other lever is referred to as the Slot lever. Sometimes it doesn't make much difference which is which but in others one slot works on multiple signals in the other interlocking. This is the case with slot lever WB35 which acts not just on WC32 but also on all other signalled routes into the eastbound platform from the west.
When WB35 lever is reversed this mechanically locks the levers in West Kensington East IMR which control the signalled routes into the eastbound from the east and allows a route to be cleared into the eastbound from the west; which signals actually clear is determined by which levers are reversed in West Kensington West IMR.

Using this logic, can it be assumed that reversing WC3 mechanically locks all levers in West Kensington West IMR that allow routes to be selected into the eastbound platform, to permit trains to enter said platform from Lillie Bridge?

If that is so, why is WC31 only slotted by WB35? It seems to me that a train reversing via the trailing crossover could be given the road into the eastbound platform whilst a train in Lillie Bridge is also given the road into the eastbound platform - what's the logic for a conflict like this?

[Harsig]

theonekea said:

EDIT:

harsig said:

Using this logic, can it be assumed that reversing WC3 mechanically locks all levers in West Kensington West IMR that allow routes to be selected into the eastbound platform, to permit trains to enter said platform from Lillie Bridge?

That is exactly right.

If that is so, why is WC31 only slotted by WB35? It seems to me that a train reversing via the trailing crossover could be given the road into the eastbound platform whilst a train in Lillie Bridge is also given the road into the eastbound platform - what's the logic for a conflict like this?

Because if WB35 lever is reversed in the East IMR then a train cannot be signalled in to the eastbound platform from Lillie Bridge because the relevant levers are locked by WB35. If WB35 is not reversed then WC31 will not clear even if WC31 lever is reversed.

[Deleted]

Ahhhhh. I see it now - thanks Harsig. I had forgotten that the slot levers probably lock stuff in their own IMR as well as the others.

[Tom]

theonekea said:

Interesting - DD's symbol guide doesn't seem to mention this convention.

DD's symbols are taken off the traffic controller's diagrams - as they cover the whole line as opposed to one site the convention will never apply.