A thank you

[Deleted]

...to the Jubilee line for creating the kind of situation which concerned me so much this morning that I actually took the Overground to work! It was a pleasant change, and although I was late, I would have been late whatever route I took, and at least I wasn't one of the unfortunate passengers which had to file down the track...

I'm not blaming anyone, by the way: I presume it was a nightmare for everyone concerned! I'm also thankful that it was a real power shortage, and nothing more sinister.

[SE13]

Well, it wouldn't be unusual for a train to be stuck in a tunnel if there's no power, and having read the comments on the Standard website, I really fail to see where people are coming from. No power = no movement.

I appreciate the OP wasn't moaning at LU direct, but the way they've scandalised it yet again in the press defies belief!

Perhaps LU should invest in some flying tug trains that can fly over the broken down units to reach others and all will be solved. By the way, if anyone does invent one, I thought of it first! ;D ;D

[Deleted]

Or we could all get out and push?

[Deleted]

London Overground is rather nice, isn't it?

But yes this is an abominal screw-up by London Underground. It rather matches a tale I've heard before... from my father... who hasn't taken the Tube for 30 years for that very reason. And it has completely undone all the efforts of my sister and me to rehabilitate him! More reliable services, more pleasant trains, refurbished stations, the JLE. All of that echos at Canary Wharf station now.

The abomination is not the power failure. Those kinds of things happen very occasionally. The abomination is the fact that LU left those passengers in a deep level tube train for two hours before evacuating them. It should have been clear after 20 minutes that if power wasn't going to be restored shortly the passengers should have been evacuated.

[Deleted]

Organising these things takes time. You can't evacuate passengers along a tunnel if there isn't a 100% guarantee that the power is off and will NOT be mistakenly restored. It might be that the power failure is concerned to one section of track only if a train were to not receive the message and quite by chance stopped over the gap in the sections of live rails, that train will, unknowingly to those being 'detrained' feed the supposedly dead section, as the rear of the train will be on a live section. Very rare that this happens, but it has happened. The consequences and resultant fallout of someone tripping, quite accidentally do not even bear thinking of. There might be whats called RGI's, Rail Gap Indicators in the tunnel, three red lights in the shape of a triangle - when lit, don't pass under any circumstances. This might just be passed ever so slighty due to a combination of things, brakes that are working on 99.9% of full effect instead of 100%, those couple of inches are all it takes to bridge the gap in the juice rails... and a combination of not readily apparent and completely unforseen 'errors' are all it takes.


Its not the first time that this has happened. Indeed, back in April 1993, there was a widespread power failure across the whole system; something at Lots Road blew. I was on the Northern Line and the lights went out on the approach. The train, having lost power, rolled into Kings Cross, which was on 'half lighting' [only some of the lights on the platform were lit] where I was evacuated and given directions to get back to London Bridge. I think I ended up walking rather than get a bus, or did I get the Thameslink as it then was? it's so long ago... but alas, a trip down Memory Lane aside....

Passenger safety is paramount. It might not seem that. I understand where you are coming from. An asthmatic passenger, a claustrophobic passenger. If someone pulls the emergency alarm at the same time the T/Op is dealing with other things, like liaising with control about evacuation times or just getting an update, there will be a delay in passing some information on. Indeed, the times I have been stopped in the tunnel and have been held for some time, I've made announcements to tell passengers what is going on, and if any passengers feel unwell etc would they make their way through to the front of the train.

Only one occasion from memory sticks out of someone coming up to me and just asking for a drink. One person out of goodness knows how many passengers have been on my trains.

You don't seriously think that London Underground as a public service body would deliberately leave its passengers in a tube tunnel with no information?

[mrfs42]

Oct 18, 2010 19:38:16 GMT @glom said:

It should have been clear after 20 minutes that if power wasn't going to be restored shortly the passengers should have been evacuated.

Quite simply, No. There are a lot of checks to be made, as ATO has mentioned above.

A lot of railway operating decisions go on 'behind the scenes' and at all times the safety of the passengers is paramount. That's what takes the time.

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2010 19:49:56 GMT @tubeoperator92 said:

You don't seriously think that London Underground as a public service body would deliberately leave its passengers in a tube tunnel with no information?

Absolutely spot on. I'm quite sick and tired of reading the complaints in the press and on here (although not quite to the same extent) when something like this happens. As a percentage of the overall service, these kinds of events are mercifully rare and in a large proportion of cases, almost unavoidable.

There's far too much of the blame culture seeping into our lives nowadays featuring "disgusted from wherever" who blows a gasket when inconvenienced once in a blue moon. Just accept that these things happen now and again and there's very little that you or I, or anybody else for that matter, can do about it. C'est la vie.

[auxsetreq]

I've just read the Es comments, and it seems as though a particular driver, or drivers are highly praised for keeping the packed in customers informed and "running up and down the train " despite being on his/their own with little or no assistance from elsewhere for a considerable time. I wonder how quick this will be forgotten with the usual ES commenting morons calling for dirverless trains

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2010 20:42:38 GMT @auxsetreq said:

I wonder how quick this will be forgotten with the usual ES commenting morons calling for dirverless trains

Morons is an apt description of some of them. There was a thread on here recently where some clown called for driverless trains on the current system despite its age and unsuitablility. The reason being it apparently works OK on modern lines abroad, designed for the purpose or easily adaptable. I do hope whoever it was, and I really can't remember who, is reading this. The staff on the trains did an excellent job ensuring that all disembarked safely. Hats off to them.

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2010 20:02:44 GMT mrfs42 said:

Quite simply, No. There are a lot of checks to be made, as ATO has mentioned above.

A lot of railway operating decisions go on 'behind the scenes' and at all times the safety of the passengers is paramount. That's what takes the time.

Of course, but that's why there needs to be a review of how to expedite the response without compromising safety. Two hours is simply unacceptable. Most people will be really, really annoyed, but there will be a small proportion who are seriously freaked out. If the effect is serious LU is opened up to some serious tort action.

It may be a low probability event, but the impact is potentially quite high, especially if this had happened on a hot summer's day rather than a mild Autumn's day. It's no good LU patting themselves on the back because their drivers equipped themselves admirably and then thinking there is no retrospection needed.

What can be done to reduce response times in the future? How can positive isolation be established sooner? How can escort staff get on the scene earlier? Are there alternative ways to power a train to the nearest station?

There must lessons to learn for the future so that if a tube line experiences a power failure like this again, passengers aren't left baking for another two hours.

[Colin]

I have no knowledge whatsoever in relation to the Jubilee line incident, but I can refer to the recent ish cable fire at Barking on the District.

We lost everything east of Barking right up to and including Upminster depot. Traction current, signals, communications - the whole lot gone. As far as the LU's power control room was concerned, all traction current sections East Ham through to and including Upminster depot were charged and on.

So you have people on the ground saying there's no power (by whatever means they were able to communicate) and the power control room saying there is power. The situation meant that the power control room could turn the traction current off their end but they could no longer guarantee it was off or that it would stay off. Under those circumstances, at what point do you decide it's safe to detrain customers onto the track? Keep in mind that arranging staff assistance is at best difficult on account of the communications also failing.

We had a number of stalled trains between stations and IIRC it was around an hour and a half after it started that the last passenger was detrained. Not bad given the circumstances. Of course things like this will only get worse in the future on account of less station staff being available to assist!....

Another point to consider is the distance from the stalled train to the nearest platform, if indeed the nearest platform is even used - there can be local reasons on the day for not using the nearest platform. Detrainments via the track are never rushed and do take time depending on the local environment and number of staff available - it may be that they'll come off in one go or they may be taken off in manageable groups.

Track detrainments are far from simple and are a last resort action, but you can be assured that people stuck on trains is not something that gets lost on LU's staff, of any grade. Big events like this are always reviewed but without being in possession of the full facts, nobody on this forum can pass judgement on why it took so long nor whether it could have done any quicker.

[Deleted]

Oct 18, 2010 23:22:34 GMT @glom said:

There must lessons to learn for the future so that if a tube line experiences a power failure like this again, passengers aren't left baking for another two hours.

An investigation has been launched. The lessons learnt from that investigation, will mean things can be handled better in the future should such an event arise. Power failures when Lots Road was running were frequent... 1993, 1995, 1996...

Lets not possibly sway the outcome of the investigation and await the official report.

[mrfs42]

Oct 18, 2010 23:22:34 GMT @glom said:

If the effect is serious LU is opened up to some serious tort action.

<off topic>

Granted - but the burden of proof surely lies with the people on the train. Assuming that there is precedent of a valid Oyster presenting a contract under various iterations of the Sale Of Goods and other contractual impedimenta?

I'm not so sure that there has been a case where the breach of duty (whether contractual or implied) has been tested in these circumstances - if you know of one, I'd be interested to know, or unless of course you're on the 'bus to Clapham. ;D

</off topic>

[splashdown]

I would say 2 hours is too long for a decision to be made. Those customers could have been removed in 30 minutes if things were properly organised.

I am fully aware of the considerations of putting passengers on the track because as soon as it is done then the whole incident will take much longer to rectify. It is a balancing act on how quickly can power be restored and how long it will take to get people to safety.

Someone mentioned that it is important that power is not charged once the evacuation is taking place but the process of preventing recharging is clear with many safety nets. Once a phone call is made and train movements have stopped then SCD's can be put down and all is safe.

A well done to all staff involved but a review on what went wrong and how to do it better in the future is always a good thing.

[Colin]

They were detrained after two hours - so if it took two hours to make the decision, they were detrained very quickly!! Please think about what you're saying people - making the decision and implementing it are two very different things.

As I said before, none of us are party to the full facts so lets not make assumptions on the actual time frames etc.

As for SCD's, they should prevent traction current being restored but they are not fully fail safe - if a breaker sticks in a sub station an SCD can weld itself to the current rails and then explode.

It did happen once upon a time at Leicester Square on the Picc and that is why we are now told that if traction current is not confirmed off, you don't put one down unless it's an absolute emergency (ie fire) and/or you cannot contact the line controller.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2010 9:46:11 GMT Colin said:

They were detrained after two hours - so if it took two hours to make the decision, they were detrained very quickly!! Please think about what you're saying people - making the decision and implementing it are two very different things.

As I said before, none of us are party to the full facts so lets not make assumptions on the actual time frames etc.

As for SCD's, they should prevent traction current being restored but they are not fully fail safe - if a breaker sticks in a sub station an SCD can weld itself to the current rails and then explode.

It did happen once upon a time at Leicester Square on the Picc and that is why we are now told that if traction current is not confirmed off, you don't put one down unless it's an absolute emergency (ie fire) and/or you cannot contact the line controller.

Actually what happened was that they tried to get the current off using the SCD as there was the problem in the substation you describe. The SCD then exploded as it failed to gt the current off. The video of it is quite impressive!

As to leaving people in tunnels for two hours. Quite simple it's disgusting. Did LUL follow their own procedures? Speaking to some people recently, they said thy they wouldn't.

[21146]

Let's hope the Jubilee Line Service Manager was allowed to get on with his/her job in the control room during the incident and was not subjected to interference from well-meaning but inexperienced senior managers? I mean, that couldn't happen, could it?

[Deleted]

Nothing was sinister maybe just LU forgot to pay EDF the electric bill............LOL

[Colin]

Oct 19, 2010 10:30:54 GMT @monkfish said:

Actually what happened was that they tried to get the current off using the SCD as there was the problem in the substation you describe. The SCD then exploded as it failed to gt the current off. The video of it is quite impressive!

Indeed - I've seen the video footage too

Point is an SCD isn't necessarily the guarantee some people think it is.

[splashdown]

Oct 19, 2010 11:24:41 GMT Colin said:

Oct 19, 2010 10:30:54 GMT @monkfish said:

Actually what happened was that they tried to get the current off using the SCD as there was the problem in the substation you describe. The SCD then exploded as it failed to gt the current off. The video of it is quite impressive!

Indeed - I've seen the video footage too

Point is an SCD isn't necessarily the guarantee some people think it is.

Which People?

I never worked with anyone who thought the SCD was a guarantee of power being off. That what the phone calls and crid are for. The SCD is just part of the process and does normally help with the protection.

As two people have seen this video I wonder why they can not also explain why such a long wait to get people off the trains. Surely you have more information than you are providing. I would always prefer facts rather than opinion.

[Colin]

Oct 19, 2010 11:40:21 GMT @splashdown said:

Which People?

You said:

Oct 19, 2010 2:12:44 GMT @splashdown said:

then SCD's can be put down and all is safe.

I am saying that whilst in normal circumstances the SCD should do it's job, there are situations when you cannot rely on it alone. The incidents at both Barking and, particularly Picc Circus, prove that.

To say it's 100% safe and nothing else could possibly happen just because an SCD is down is quite a statement.

Oct 19, 2010 11:40:21 GMT @splashdown said:

I never worked with anyone who thought the SCD was a guarantee of power being off.

I have, and still do. It's also quite shocking that many people, mainly on the stations side of the business, haven't got the first clue how to lay one correctly or the reasons why.

Oct 19, 2010 11:40:21 GMT @splashdown said:

That what the phone calls and crid are for. The SCD is just part of the process and does normally help with the protection.

Now you are talking about engineering hours - the incident in question was in traffic hours so let's not confuse matters by bringing equipment and procedures that are totally irrelevant.

Oct 19, 2010 11:40:21 GMT @splashdown said:

As two people have seen this video I wonder why they can not also explain why such a long wait to get people off the trains.

I saw the video as part of my signaller training. The video is CCTV of the immediate aftermath of a one under (though the one under is thankfully not included) - that video is quite rightly not something for public consumption.

As for explaining the wait, I've already said I am not party to the facts. Maybe you need to read my posts properly instead of trying to challenge me. That will stand you in good stead in the future my friend.

Oct 19, 2010 11:40:21 GMT @splashdown said:

Surely you have more information than you are providing. I would always prefer facts rather than opinion.

Well then await those facts to become available. I'm merely a District line train driver not the company managing director.

I have the same access to information on LU's internal intranet as everyone else - you purport to be LU staff - so you can access the Jubilee line service managers report just as I can. That being said, I'm not at work right now and it's not my immediate priority to get myself onto a work PC. I drive trains and that's all I'm really interested in whilst on company property.

Remember also that this forum is not the place to carry out a public scrutiny of events that occur on LU - there are proper channels for that.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2010 11:06:24 GMT @21146 said:

Let's hope the Jubilee Line Service Manager was allowed to get on with his/her job in the control room during the incident and was not subjected to interference from well-meaning but inexperienced senior managers? I mean, that couldn't happen, could it?

Nail. Head. Hit.

[Rich32]

Mod note -

This thread has now been locked as that all parties have said their piece and we are now awaiting the full facts.