Whats the box for?

[Colin]

Those of you that have met me will know i've had a burning question for a while now. Underneath both the station starters at Embankment is a little box which will show something when it is illuminated, what I want to know is, what information is that?

I've tried many times to get a picture of one of them - but they have proved elusive, so you'll have to make do with an example from High Street Kensington. The box i'm refering to is like the one here which has EC illuminated (route set for Earls Court). Before anyone asks, the other box in this pic has TS (Triangle sidings).

Once again it's the one's at Embankment that i'm asking about..........

[Deleted]

There are light boxes at Piccadilly Circus and Paddington which says things like 'SHUNT AHEAD' and 'REVERSE', to tell the driver what to do if he needs to reverse to the n/b line from the s/b platform.

The box at Embankment may say something similar. How big is it?

[Colin]

The boxes are exactly the same size as in the example above, that's why I put the picture up ;D ;D

I have reversed there before, so unless they are defective, it's got nothing to do with that.

[Deleted]

colin said:

The boxes are exactly the same size as in the example above, that's why I put the picture up ;D ;D

Well, you didn't make that clear in the original post - their size probably has something to do with their function.

colin said:

I have reversed there before, so unless they are defective, it's got nothing to do with that.

Then I have no idea what they could be.

[Colin]

theonekea said:

There are light boxes at Piccadilly Circus and Paddington which says things like 'SHUNT AHEAD' and 'REVERSE', to tell the driver what to do if he needs to reverse to the n/b line from the s/b platform.

The box at Embankment may say something similar.

dozy said:

Sure it's not the reverse light or the illuminated 'A'

Ok, just to clarify, as I should have done in the original post (sorry I didn't ):
There is nothing contained in the signalling to indicate provision of an illuminated A at either signal.

Also there is nothing in the route knowledge, nor is there a requirement to have an indication given prior to reversing.

On that basis I would be very surprised if it were either of those. As there are (disused) flood gates either side of the station, i'd be more inclined to go down this route.

A final point - and this is not meant as a dig at anyone, so please don't read me wrong and have an argument - I'd prefer it if there wasn't too many wild guesses, as it is a specific question - a specific answer would be appreciated.

[Deleted]

them little boxes are to tell you which way the t/d has pointed you do go either towards earls ct or triangle sidings

[Deleted]

aetearlscourt said:

them little boxes are to tell you which way the t/d has pointed you do go either towards earls ct or triangle sidings

the box at embankment are to tell you if the site is in auto working or not if you dont see a A then expect to be reversed there

[Colin]

But I have never seen them illuminated (hence the question) - if you are right aetearlscourt, then by rights I should expect to be reversed everytime I arrive at Embankment. Just so we are totally clear, the signals in question are EH3 & EH9.

[DWS]

colin said:

But I have never seen them illuminated (hence the question) - if you are right aetearlscourt, then by rights I should expect to be reversed everytime I arrive at Embankment. Just so we are totally clear, the signals in question are EH3 & EH9.

Just been up to the loft and found in my collection, Second Supplement to Traffic Circular No.18 1968.

Automatic Control of Signalling and Reversing Facilities at Charing Cross District Line with Supervision from Earl's Court Regulating Room, in operation from Sunday, 19th May.

B4. Signs bearing the word REVERSE and SHUNT AHEAD are provided at signals EH.3 and EH.9 respectively.

These are illuminated when the approaching train is due to reverse as a reminder to Drivers that they are required to reverse.

[Deleted]

So they are like the ones at Paddington and Piccadilly Circus then! BAET once described elsewhere how they were used by the signalman in the days when train radio was not common.

[Admin Team]

dws said:

Just been up to the loft and found in my collection, Second Supplement to Traffic Circular No.18 1968.

Automatic Control of Signalling and Reversing Facilities at Charing Cross District Line with Supervision from Earl's Court Regulating Room, in operation from Sunday, 19th May.

B4. Signs bering the word REVERSE and SHUNT AHEAD are provided at signals EH.3 and EH.9 respectively.

These are illuminated when the approaching train is due to reverse as a reminder to Drivers that they are required to reverse.

Phew - thank goodness someone had stuff going back that far!

Certainly that was my understanding of what they were for, but I wasn't going to stick my head up until I'd been able to positively establish the correct situation!

I'd just rechecked the District Line Supplement for both the reversing procedures and the signal diagrams, and the boxes are not mentioned at all, although the illuminated 'A' on FDX805 is shown on the latter.

As a matter of interest I'm going to have another look at the route knowledge DVD that was produced about 18 months ago to see what appears and what is described there for the reversing moves. More later, I hope!

[trainopd78]

admin said:

dws said:

Just been up to the loft and found in my collection, Second Supplement to Traffic Circular No.18 1968.

Automatic Control of Signalling and Reversing Facilities at Charing Cross District Line with Supervision from Earl's Court Regulating Room, in operation from Sunday, 19th May.

B4. Signs bering the word REVERSE and SHUNT AHEAD are provided at signals EH.3 and EH.9 respectively.

These are illuminated when the approaching train is due to reverse as a reminder to Drivers that they are required to reverse.

Phew - thank goodness someone had stuff going back that far!

Certainly that was my understanding of what they were for, but I wasn't going to stick my head up until I'd been able to positively establish the correct situation!

I'd just rechecked the District Line Supplement for both the reversing procedures and the signal diagrams, and the boxes are not mentioned at all, although the illuminated 'A' on FDX805 is shown on the latter.

As a matter of interest I'm going to have another look at the route knowledge DVD that was produced about 18 months ago to see what appears and what is described there for the reversing moves. More later, I hope!

Nothing on the DVD i'm afraid. They're not even mentioned. AFAIK, they're still in use. (even if the bulbs are blown)

[Admin Team]

Just re-watched to Wayne and you're of course spot on!

I have to say for a route knowledge aid that seems a bit of a shortcoming....

And I agree, my understanding was they're still in use.

[Deleted]

admin said:

Just re-watched to Wayne and you're of course spot on!

I have to say for a route knowledge aid that seems a bit of a shortcoming....

Is it a shortcoming that could cause a problem? I was under the impression that 'route knowledge' included these types of indications, even if they are of a purely advisory nature now, with train radio widely available.

[Colin]

dws said:

Just been up to the loft and found in my collection, Second Supplement to Traffic Circular No.18 1968.

Automatic Control of Signalling and Reversing Facilities at Charing Cross District Line with Supervision from Earl's Court Regulating Room, in operation from Sunday, 19th May.

B4. Signs bearing the word REVERSE and SHUNT AHEAD are provided at signals EH.3 and EH.9 respectively.

These are illuminated when the approaching train is due to reverse as a reminder to Drivers that they are required to reverse.

In which case I stand corrected - and apologise to TOK and others who I shot down in flames rather too quickly

[Tom]

Looks like I was beaten to it, but I did check today (honest!).

A colleague of mine saw the question posted and had a look at the site bookwiring earlier, and has passed on his findings which are reproduced below. They may help to explain why no-one has seen the signs lit.

"From a brief trip downstairs the signs at 3G and 9G are "reverse" signs. The pick up for their operating relays is out of the scanning and cards which I don't fully understand but involves the use of REV E-W and REV W-E functions. This and the fact that the sheet is labelled "automatic reversing" implies that the signs would only be utilised if the site were in an auto-reversing mode. If the signaller chose to individually route reversing trains the sign would not illuminate. I did not spot any evidence of decommissioning the facility so (assuming the auto rev modes are themselves available - which I didn't check) it must be that none of the T/Op correspondents have experience of the site in auto reversing mode (or the lamps are dead)."

[DWS]

The Auto reversing at Embankment was used at the time some years ago when Westminster was being rebuilt for the Jubilee Line, the service used to be suspended between Embankment and South Kensington every weekend for about six months.

Another thing that some Drivers did not know about was the Plungers at EH.7 & EH.9.

When automatic reversing is set up from Earl's Court, signals EH.7 and EH.9 will not clear until the appropiate plunger has been operated by the Driver.

[Admin Team]

dws said:

The Auto reversing at Embankment was used at the time some years ago when Westminster was being rebuilt for the Jubilee Line, the service used to be suspended between Embankment and South Kensington every weekend for about six months.

Another thing that some Drivers did not know about was the Plungers at EH.7 & EH.9.

When automatic reversing is set up from Earl's Court, signals EH.7 and EH.9 will not clear until the appropiate plunger has been operated by the Driver.

I'm pretty sure that these plungers must be long gone; I've never heard of them before, they're certainly not shown on the sig diagrams in the Line Supplement and neither are they mentioned in the reversing descriptions contained in the Line Supplement.

I admit I've never spent any time trawling the headwalls at Embankment, but I've certainly never noticed any plunger boxes which either appear to be used or disused; I suspect that they were removed with the refurbishment of the platforms.

Unless someone knows different of course........

[trainopd78]

The plunger box for the wrong road starter is still there. I pointed it out to someone around 2 weeks ago. At least I hope thats what it was?!!!

[Admin Team]

trainopd78 said:

The plunger box for the wrong road starter is still there. I pointed it out to someone around 2 weeks ago. At least I hope thats what it was?!!!

LOL - never noticed it!!!!!

Didn't you press it? That would have woken a few up at ECT!!! Second thoughts, maybe not..............

[DWS]

admin said:

trainopd78 said:

The plunger box for the wrong road starter is still there. I pointed it out to someone around 2 weeks ago. At least I hope thats what it was?!!!

LOL - never noticed it!!!!!

Didn't you press it? That would have woken a few up at ECT!!! Second thoughts, maybe not..............

The Plungers only work if Earl's Court push the Auto reverse button, this site is in AUTO-THROUGH most of the time.

[Colin]

Well it's a pity none of this was ever mentioned by the three instructor operators I had

[solidbond]

Sorry to come in on this one a bit late but I have used the plungers, and seen the reverse sign lit, for the West to East reverse, when, as mentioned above, the Jubilee Line was being built through Westminster. The plunger is situated on the East end of the W/B platform. The box on the W/B lights up 'Reverse', and the box on the E/B should light up 'Shunt Ahead', although I have never seen that one lit. I'm sure I saw mention of them in a Line Supplement some time ago, but despite checking the 1993 version, have been unable to locate the references to them.

[DWS]

solidbond said:

Sorry to come in on this one a bit late but I have used the plungers, and seen the reverse sign lit, for the West to East reverse, when, as mentioned above, the Jubilee Line was being built through Westminster. The plunger is situated on the East end of the W/B platform. The box on the W/B lights up 'Reverse', and the box on the E/B should light up 'Shunt Ahead', although I have never seen that one lit. I'm sure I saw mention of them in a Line Supplement some time ago, but despite checking the 1993 version, have been unable to locate the references to them.

Another trip into the loft and I find Supplement to Appendix 11 to the Rule Book - Regulations Concerning Working of Trains District Line 1983

Section B7. Embankment: Reversing of Trains.

This has about the Signs and Plungers, in them days it was down to the Guard to press it as they were at the other end from were they are now.

When OPO came in the plungers were moved for the Train Operaters to press.

At EH. 7 the plunger is on the tunnel wall just inside the tunnel passed the headwall.

[Deleted]

the plungers are there alright now regards to the acutal workings there the signalman can select either 1st reverser, 2nd reverser, and so on to 4th reverser now i know the 3rd reversor does not work as theres a cable fault in the control room at earls court. it is purely driven by electronic cards the same as these

aetearlscourt.fotopic.net/p15106342.html

on the westbound the plunger is above the wrong road starter on the wall in a red box stating the word plunger on it so you cannot miss it

but going back to the reversing there the signalman can decide if say the 1st train is a through westbound and then 2nd train is a reversor but the next one is a through train this can be set up so it is done all automatically thus the idea for the cards but this has to be set up before the train gets to temple w/b