Rayners Lane and Ealing Common

[edb]

Now i do not usually post or read the signaling forum, bit too complicated for me but i do have two questions related to what i saw out and about today.

1. At Rayners Lane standing on the Eastbound platform waiting for the Picc Line train i noticed that there are 4 possible aspects on the platform repeater. Two of which are used in a diagonal pattern. as below (i hope)

A +
+ G

A= Amber
G= Green
+ = "un used aspect"


Why is this? why not just one repeater?

2. At ealing common on the Eastbound platform there is a single aspect light that looks similar to the red lights at termini.

This light was the other side and above the platform repeater. When i say the other side i mean facing west when the repeater faces east.

Now I'm sorry if this is in the wrong area, if anyone wants to move it to general Q&A's by all means. I thought this was related to signals on no specific line

[Deleted]

edb said:

Now i do not usually post or read the signaling forum, bit too complicated for me but i do have two questions related to what i saw out and about today.

1. At Rayners Lane standing on the Eastbound platform waiting for the Picc Line train i noticed that there are 4 possible aspects on the platform repeater. Two of which are used in a diagonal pattern. as below (i hope)

A +
+ G

A= Amber
G= Green
+ = "un used aspect"


Why is this? why not just one repeater?

One of the aspects contains a 'shunt' aspect, a 45 degree black bar on a yellow background. When one of them is lit it tells the guard that the train is performing a shunt maneuver and that the train needs to be tipped out.

edb said:

2. At ealing common on the Eastbound platform there is a single aspect light that looks similar to the red lights at termini.

This light was the other side and above the platform repeater. When i say the other side i mean facing west when the repeater faces east.

This is a Fixed Red Light, or FRL, a warning to drivers that they cannot proceed any further. The one you saw is a 'proper' FRL, as it has an associated trainstop attached which enforces the FRL, i.e. for movements to the eastbound platform from depot. There are other FRLs which are purely 'idiot lights', placed in locations where no sensible driver would expect to proceed further than their current position (i.e. Hyde Park Corner e/b). I say sensible because it happened once at Kings Cross.

[Harsig]

theonekea said:

edb said:

Now i do not usually post or read the signaling forum, bit too complicated for me but i do have two questions related to what i saw out and about today.

1. At Rayners Lane standing on the Eastbound platform waiting for the Picc Line train i noticed that there are 4 possible aspects on the platform repeater. Two of which are used in a diagonal pattern. as below (i hope)

A +
+ G

A= Amber
G= Green
+ = "un used aspect"


Why is this? why not just one repeater?

One of the aspects contains a 'shunt' aspect, a 45 degree black bar on a yellow background. When one of them is lit it tells the guard that the train is performing a shunt maneuver and that the train needs to be tipped out.

So close and yet so wrong! ;D

In this case the aspect above the green will be a repeater of the Junction route indicator. It will be illuminated when the eastbound starting signal is cleared for the Piccadilly line and consists of a white bar at 45^o on a black background. The lower left aspect in this case is unused but there are other places such as platform 4 at Harrow where this is used to repeat a shunt signal as TheOneKea has described.

[Deleted]

harsig said:

theonekea said:

One of the aspects contains a 'shunt' aspect, a 45 degree black bar on a yellow background. When one of them is lit it tells the guard that the train is performing a shunt maneuver and that the train needs to be tipped out.

So close and yet so wrong! ;D

Cough cough splutter....

harsig said:

In this case the aspect above the green will be a repeater of the Junction route indicator. It will be illuminated when the eastbound starting signal is cleared for the Piccadilly line and consists of a white bar at 45^o on a black background. The lower left aspect in this case is unused but there are other places such as platform 4 at Harrow where this is used to repeat a shunt signal as TheOneKea has described.

A similar example of the use of the black bar as a harbour light repeater can be seen at Turnham Green w/b, where a guard in the rear cab would definitely not be able to see the junction indicator from his vantage point. Baker Street Bakerloo n/b is also a good example of one that is not used anymore.

[c5]

And Earl's Court platforms

[Deleted]

my idea is that platform repeaters should now be removed they are a pain when they either fail or a bulb goes in them. but mr lul still wants them so the station supervisor knows when the signal has cleared for the last train so he can see it out and if the bulb fails it costs metronet and tubelines £500 a day when they dont work in fines ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[trainopd78]

aetearlscourt said:

my idea is that platform repeaters should now be removed they are a pain when they either fail or a bulb goes in them. but mr lul still wants them so the station supervisor knows when the signal has cleared for the last train so he can see it out and if the bulb fails it costs metronet and tubelines £500 a day when they dont work in fines ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

That sounds like a very good reason for them to be kept to me!! ;D

[citysig]

You would think that by now the infracos would have worked out it was cheaper to fix minor problems on the day they happen, rather than getting fined for when the failure drags into the next traffic day.

It's not just for last trains either. Those keen individuals with large table-tennis bats need to know when the starter is green ;D

[edb]

theonekea said:

This is a Fixed Red Light, or FRL, a warning to drivers that they cannot proceed any further. The one you saw is a 'proper' FRL, as it has an associated trainstop attached which enforces the FRL, i.e. for movements to the eastbound platform from depot. There are other FRLs which are purely 'idiot lights', placed in locations where no sensible driver would expect to proceed further than their current position (i.e. Hyde Park Corner e/b). I say sensible because it happened once at Kings Cross.

No without wanting to delve into something i am not that knowlegeable about and upset anyone. I was at ealing common again today and, there is no trainstop and the "filter" in the light shows no signs of being red. It looks more like it is a angled filter as mentioned earlier in this thraed.

[Colin]

Lets see if we can get there this time ;D

Right, we all know that a platform repeater shows what the station starter shows (green for green, and yellow for red), and that a basic platform repeater for a basic signal, has a green light over a yellow - with only one lit, according to the aspect of the station starter.

The other type looks like this (apologies for poor quality):

In this version the green is bottom left, and can be lit on it's own if that is all the station starter is showing. The reason it is on the bottom here is because of the aspect above - a white bar (either direction) which is for a junction indicator, and, would appear in conjunction with the green. Yellow on it's own is for a red station starter, and the bottom right being for a shunt signal.

It's possible to have several greens with different junction indicators above them, if needed, but you will only ever get one yellow over a shunt. Similarly, it's possible that you may only see three of the possible basic four aspects - local needs will dictate.

Is that any clearer?

As for fixed red lights on running lines (found at the end of many reversing platforms, usually at the 'wrong end') - I didn't think these had train stops?!

[Deleted]

colin said:

As for fixed red lights on running lines (found at the end of many reversing platforms, usually at the 'wrong end') - I didn't think these had train stops?!

Indeed they do. I have seen the trainstop at Ealing Common e/b lower as trains come into the station.

The FRL at Hammersmith e/b fast has a trainstop too, presumably to protect the e/b line from trains coming out of the siding.

[Harsig]

colin said:

As for fixed red lights on running lines (found at the end of many reversing platforms, usually at the 'wrong end') - I didn't think these had train stops?!

Where a fixed red light is provided as the terminating point of a signalled route then a train stop is provided. Where a fixed red light is provided at a location where there is a possiblilty of an incident similar to the one that occurred at Kings Cross years ago then generally a trainstop is not installed.
To take an example both sorts can be found at Harrow on the Hill. The northbound platforms 3 & 4 both have fixed red lights at the south end. The one on platform 4 has a train stop because trains can be signalled into the platform from both ends i.e. from the south in most cases but also from the reversing siding to the north and in this case the fixed red light is the end of the signalled route.
There is no train stop associated with the fixed red light at the south end of platform 3 as trains can only be signalled into the platform from the south and in theory a train operator will only find himself looking at this fixed red light if he mistakenly changes ends in the platform after being told to reverse at Harrow. (and before anyone says I know a train in platform 3 cannot actually reverse at Harrow and must actually continue further north)

[oliver]

Nicely explained

Just one small question remains for me - probably minor - whats a shunt??

Sorry I imagin its realy simple

[Colin]

Here you are:

A shunt signal, in simple terms, is used for slow speed non passenger moves in sidings and depots. It can have other use's - but to keep it simple, that's it's main purpose.

In the picture above it's at danger, but will rotate 45^o to indicate 'clear'.