Building just outside Hammersmith H&C

[bluefish]

Hello, I have seen a lot of 'orange' hi vis activity on the building site as you leave Hammersmith on the left (towards goldhawk) anyone know what it is? is it an LU building? whats it for? it seems rather sinister looking!

[programmes1]

Dec 10, 2010 8:18:36 GMT @bluefish said:

Hello, I have seen a lot of 'orange' hi vis activity on the building site as you leave Hammersmith on the left (towards goldhawk) anyone know what it is? is it an LU building? whats it for? it seems rather sinister looking!

They must have started building the new control centre.

[citysig]

It is indeed the "shell" of what will one day become the new control centre.

The building is likely to be finished within the next year or two, and will probably end up staying as an empty shell for several years after.

[Deleted]

Why not put it to another use during that time, or not build it until later.

[citysig]

It may be partly used, but not for signalling.

The building was the start point for the whole project. Once the project was started the first phase was to build the building. Unfortunately the financial climate has forced the remainder of the project to be delayed.

[Deleted]

It's as good as confirmed that the Piccadilly line will be the first in the new building.

[Colin]

I thought this building was for the SSR and the Picc was going to Acton?

[railtechnician]

Dec 23, 2010 8:27:14 GMT Colin said:

I thought this building was for the SSR and the Picc was going to Acton?

Now come on Colin, you really don't believe the legend at Bollo House do you (Piccadilly Line West End Operating Centre)?

It never was, nor was it ever going to be because it is too small for one thing as it houses Tube Lines signalling staff and management, P-Way managers, train crew and operating management fully occupying the building. You may know that the building was built on the site of the original Bollo Lane LT CSE offices and opened in 1996. Subsequently additional P-way accommodation was built at the east end and then various containers were added for additional signals stores.

Of course Ash House at Arnos Grove is the East End Operating Centre and of course the facility does exist to control the signalling from just west of Manor House to Cockfosters from there when the Earls Court computer throws a wobbly or the signal databus link fails.

Back in 2005 all the talk was of moving the District Controller out of Earls Court and doing up its control room as the Picc only control room. To that end I did a lot of enabling works clearing redundant equipment and cabling from both controllers desks and tidying up to make room for additional facilities that were planned to be installed and I had discussions as an interested party with the designers and contractors who were to be involved in the revamp. The last I saw before I retired was the new diagram panels and my last job was refitting all the clocks behind them.

I always thought the idea of upgrading Earls Ct as the Picc Control Room was daft for reasons that I won't discuss here but the job of shifting the control room elsewhere was priced around £200M and subsequently £300M because it has always been assumed that it has to coincide with total resignalling of the majority of the Picc. I did actually suggest intercepting all the existing control, indication, data and comms lines at the Warwick Road equipment room complex and 'piping' them to another location via a secure fibre optic SCADA transmission network. IMO this was the cheapest and best way to relocate a control room and it would be much easier to interface upgraded signalling to such a place in future. My only concern at the time was that Tunnel Telephones might be an issue but I was assured by the contract PM that software applications already existed that would handle that too.

The very last job I can recall being done at Earls Ct was to create a new false ceiling but that was the last of stage 1 of the control room revamp. Just before I retired I again heard the rumour that the control room would actually be resited as part of the signalling upgrade, however, the location was still in the balance.

When you have a few more years service in you will no doubt notice (if you haven't already) what I noticed in my 28+ years on the system. LT/LU centralises and decentralises in cycles, rotates organisations endlessly through properties, amalgamates and separates staff and resources from year to year, assembles and disassembles and the key to all of that is financial!

[North End]

Dec 23, 2010 14:30:51 GMT railtechnician said:

Dec 23, 2010 8:27:14 GMT Colin said:

I thought this building was for the SSR and the Picc was going to Acton?

Now come on Colin, you really don't believe the legend at Bollo House do you (Piccadilly Line West End Operating Centre)?

It never was, nor was it ever going to be because it is too small for one thing as it houses Tube Lines signalling staff and management, P-Way managers, train crew and operating management fully occupying the building. You may know that the building was built on the site of the original Bollo Lane LT CSE offices and opened in 1996. Subsequently additional P-way accommodation was built at the east end and then various containers were added for additional signals stores.

Of course Ash House at Arnos Grove is the East End Operating Centre and of course the facility does exist to control the signalling from just west of Manor House to Cockfosters from there when the Earls Court computer throws a wobbly or the signal databus link fails.

Back in 2005 all the talk was of moving the District Controller out of Earls Court and doing up its control room as the Picc only control room. To that end I did a lot of enabling works clearing redundant equipment and cabling from both controllers desks and tidying up to make room for additional facilities that were planned to be installed and I had discussions as an interested party with the designers and contractors who were to be involved in the revamp. The last I saw before I retired was the new diagram panels and my last job was refitting all the clocks behind them.

I always thought the idea of upgrading Earls Ct as the Picc Control Room was daft for reasons that I won't discuss here but the job of shifting the control room elsewhere was priced around £200M and subsequently £300M because it has always been assumed that it has to coincide with total resignalling of the majority of the Picc. I did actually suggest intercepting all the existing control, indication, data and comms lines at the Warwick Road equipment room complex and 'piping' them to another location via a secure fibre optic SCADA transmission network. IMO this was the cheapest and best way to relocate a control room and it would be much easier to interface upgraded signalling to such a place in future. My only concern at the time was that Tunnel Telephones might be an issue but I was assured by the contract PM that software applications already existed that would handle that too.

The very last job I can recall being done at Earls Ct was to create a new false ceiling but that was the last of stage 1 of the control room revamp. Just before I retired I again heard the rumour that the control room would actually be resited as part of the signalling upgrade, however, the location was still in the balance.

When you have a few more years service in you will no doubt notice (if you haven't already) what I noticed in my 28+ years on the system. LT/LU centralises and decentralises in cycles, rotates organisations endlessly through properties, amalgamates and separates staff and resources from year to year, assembles and disassembles and the key to all of that is financial!

I believe the original Tube Lines plan was for a new Piccadilly Line control centre building which was to be located in Acton Works.

This was 1-2 years ago, I've no idea if the Tube Lines/LUL merger has caused a re-think.

[Deleted]

The original plan was for the Piccadilly line control room to be in Acton Works, just next to the running line.
The PPP and inter-running with the District is a factor with the move. Plus they probably think they can axe a few staff whilst they're at it!

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2010 9:30:43 GMT programmes1 said:

Dec 10, 2010 8:18:36 GMT @bluefish said:

Hello, I have seen a lot of 'orange' hi vis activity on the building site as you leave Hammersmith on the left (towards goldhawk) anyone know what it is? is it an LU building? whats it for? it seems rather sinister looking!

They must have started building the new control centre.

Dec 23, 2010 7:23:34 GMT @monkfish said:

It's as good as confirmed that the Piccadilly line will be the first in the new building.

What lines are moving to this new facility, besides probably the Picc?

[citysig]

Well it was meant to be the Sub-Surface Railways control room, which is the Metropolitan, Circle, Hammersmith and City and that other one... the green one. Oh yeh the District ;D

Now it appears (although I've only heard rumours at this stage) that the little blue railway also wants to share our room.

[railtechnician]

Dec 23, 2010 19:12:52 GMT @citysig said:

Well it was meant to be the Sub-Surface Railways control room, which is the Metropolitan, Circle, Hammersmith and City and that other one... the green one. Oh yeh the District ;D

Now it appears (although I've only heard rumours at this stage) that the little blue railway also wants to share our room.

Mmm! Time for a reality check just for those who may not know, there's no Circle control room nor H&C control room just the Metropolitan and District control rooms running effectively Metropolitan and District trains.

There is when one thinks about it good reason to keep the Picc bundled with the Met and the District due to the common running lines Baron's Ct-Ealing Common and Rayners Lane to Uxbridge.

AFAIK the plan always was for the new Picc Control Room to be sited in Acton Works and it was on then off more than once in the past as the future budgets became visible.

LU has the same disease that much of the rest of the public facing UK has, it can't make a plan and stick to it because of the way that the government controls the purse strings and that nothing a government does must be honoured by a successive one. Thus budgetting is far from an exact science and planning must by definition follow the same path in what in reality is the great game of financial procurement which wastes £millions.

[Colin]

Dec 23, 2010 14:30:51 GMT railtechnician said:

Now come on Colin, you really don't believe the legend at Bollo House do you (Piccadilly Line West End Operating Centre)?

As I'm sure you've guessed by now, I was in fact referring to Acton Works, not Bollo House

Dec 23, 2010 19:45:56 GMT railtechnician said:

Mmm! Time for a reality check just for those who may not know, there's no Circle control room nor H&C control room just the Metropolitan and District control rooms running effectively Metropolitan and District trains.

Reality check back atch'ya....

Since you left LU the "Met controllers" are actually employed by the "Circle & Hammersmith" business unit, and their Service Control Manager is also employed by that same business unit. In fact I believe the Baker Street SCC is also part of the C&H business unit. The Metropolitan service control set up, in terms of management and employees (aka the Metropolitan business unit), covers the signal cabins.

In terms of being a factual post though, MetControl is spot on when he lists the SSR as being formed of 4 lines, cos those 4 lines will be controlled from one place by one single team - what we have now is irrelevant quite frankly.

[railtechnician]

Dec 24, 2010 2:04:01 GMT Colin said:

Dec 23, 2010 14:30:51 GMT railtechnician said:

Now come on Colin, you really don't believe the legend at Bollo House do you (Piccadilly Line West End Operating Centre)?

As I'm sure you've guessed by now, I was in fact referring to Acton Works, not Bollo House

Dec 23, 2010 19:45:56 GMT railtechnician said:

Mmm! Time for a reality check just for those who may not know, there's no Circle control room nor H&C control room just the Metropolitan and District control rooms running effectively Metropolitan and District trains.

Reality check back atch'ya....

Since you left LU the "Met controllers" are actually employed by the "Circle & Hammersmith" business unit, and their Service Control Manager is also employed by that same business unit. In fact I believe the Baker Street SCC is also part of the C&H business unit. The Metropolitan service control set up, in terms of management and employees (aka the Metropolitan business unit), covers the signal cabins.

In terms of being a factual post though, MetControl is spot on when he lists the SSR as being formed of 4 lines, cos those 4 lines will be controlled from one place by one single team - what we have now is irrelevant quite frankly.

No probs with any of the above, you can shuffle all of that around ad infinitum as you imply and it does not alter my point! I wasn't thinking about allocations of staff or facilities to any 'service' (i.e. Circle is a service not a line) but purely from a control viewpoint.

My thrust was that in control terms a Circle train is simply a District train for a time and then a Met for a time, as is an H&C to Barking, and that a Picc becomes a Met on the approach to Rayners Lane etc. If you tell me that this has altered since I retired I will be gobsmacked. I would be even more gobsmacked if you were to assert that it would change in the future unless there are plans to unbundle and multitrack the lines which is an impossibility for so many reasons.

I can see that the entire SSL could become a single 'line' from a control viewpoint though I'm not sure that that is desirable and indeed at present I presume it is still Baker St/Met Cabins/Earls Ct/Upminster/NR in terms of signalling control.

One assumes the Baker Street SCC still controls part of the Jubilee unless it has now transferred to Neasden.

AFAICR I remember just one interlocking machine with signals controlled from two signal control rooms and that is Baker St Jubilee & Bakerloo controlled from both the SCC and the Bakerloo Control room, everywhere else an interlocking machine is under the control of a single signal control notwithstanding slotting arrangements between control rooms as at Ealing Broadway, Kings Cross Picc etc.

Unless things have altered the Picc controls most of the District signalling because Earls Ct. is a Picc asset and all the signalmen were assigned to the Picc but from an actual control viewpoint the Picc and District signalling is a single system from Barons Court to Ealing Common (AFAIK District stock could also still run to Hounslow Central even though they don't) and if that remains (it is common sense to keep it so) there is justification for a single SSL/Picc control room and signalling control centre. I would expect Baker Street SCC to be relocated into the new complex minus the
Jubilee signalling controls if it currently retains them, as it is a computer operation it should be simplicity to 'pipe' it anywhere on the combine over a databus. My recollection is that crossovers between the lines from Finchley Road to Wembley Park were not being maintained and that line separation was planned, I used to do the point and signal maintenance on that section and can recall parts having been removed from 6' crossovers to keep turnouts working elsewhere on the Met.


Hopefully you will have gathered that we see the new control complex from different angles i.e. operating (organisation/staffing) and engineering (signalling and communications control). As you correctly assert the former is irrelevant but the latter is not, nor can it be as long as two line organisations run trains over common roads.

I hope that clarifies my earlier posting.

[citysig]

Dec 23, 2010 19:45:56 GMT railtechnician said:

Mmm! Time for a reality check just for those who may not know, there's no Circle control room nor H&C control room just the Metropolitan and District control rooms running effectively Metropolitan and District trains.

As has been covered by Colin, that is no longer the case.

In fact from whichever angle you come from, the lines will still be individually controlled, and will still have separate controllers and separate Service Managers. What may change is a reduction in Service Control Managers - there would be no real need to have more than 2 (SSR north, SSR south for example.)

I attended some of the early meetings and a mock-up experiment for the room some years ago, and whilst things may have moved on somewhat since, the basic principals will have to remain otherwise the room would not exist.

The only hint at the Piccadilly line back then was the rumour of the SSR taking over Uxbridge/ Rayners Lane-Acton, leaving the Picc to concentrate on running to Heathrow. In fact during the mock-up exercise some scenarios included this branch.

The current set-up of the control rooms is more a by-product of when things were very different. How old is Earl's Court control room for instance? That set-up harks back as far as then. The SCC at Baker Street does still control the old part of the Jubilee, but even this was as a result of how things were set up years ago. Back then from both a signalling and staffing point of view, benefits were gained from having adjacent lines controlled from one point - even if later years meant that they were all governed by different business units.

The parallel running of Met / Jub and Picc / District is no longer such an interwoven matter anymore. Both pairs of lines are pretty much worked as separate entities now - certainly very much so where the Met and Jub is concerned. It's a case of although they share access to/from Neasden depot, for the rest of the time never the twain shall meet.

The point you made about trains that are on other lines. These days a Picc at Uxbridge is under our (the Met's) care. But more so than in the past, it remains very much a Picc asset visiting our world. If something delays it, the politics machine will be focused on the Met business unit delaying a Picc business unit asset. For the same delay, the politics machine would never look at the H&C business unit - even thought the controller who is responsible for everything (H&C, Met and looking after the Picc) is employed by the H&C.

Confused yet?

Tacking the Picc onto the SSR control room puzzles me. It would not surprise me if someone had heard that maybe they will rent part of the building for their railway, rather than becoming a part of SSR.

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2010 4:55:12 GMT railtechnician said:

My thrust was that in control terms a Circle train is simply a District train for a time and then a Met for a time, as is an H&C to Barking, and that a Picc becomes a Met on the approach to Rayners Lane etc. If you tell me that this has altered since I retired I will be gobsmacked. I would be even more gobsmacked if you were to assert that it would change in the future unless there are plans to unbundle and multitrack the lines which is an impossibility for so many reasons.

It's not quite like that though. As a District controller I will of course deal with any incidents involving C&H trains while they are on my part of the railway just as I would with a District train (there seems to be some belief amongst C&H drivers that we ignore their radio calls, this is emphatically not the case). However dealing with late running and getting that train back to its booked working is not my concern, that is in the hands of the C&H controller, and if they want the train short-tripped on our patch they should ask the District controller first (to ensure it doesn't conflict with anything else we may be doing). Likewise District trains at Edgware Road are still District trains and they won't do anything with them other than turn them round and send them back (or nick the stock ;D ).

[citysig]

Dec 24, 2010 12:22:52 GMT @tfc said:

Likewise District trains at Edgware Road are still District trains and they won't do anything with them other than turn them round and send them back (or nick the stock ;D ).

Never Anyway it's our stock in the first place ;D

[Deleted]

There was a Piccadilly line bulletin earlier this week. I imagine it'll be on the JNP pages on the Intranet.

[railtechnician]

TFC & Met Control,

I take all your points, I am not confused, but you are both talking about Line Control matters which I do understand, whereas I am talking about control of signalling. You could separate the Picc completely from the District and Met by splitting the lines into separate entities from Baron's Ct to Acton Town and giving Acton to Rayners Lane branch over to SSR and thus having completely independent signalling systems. Somehow I don't think it will happen that way because it removes the flexibility afforded by the four tracking and could the SSR really take on the branch without impacting upon existing District and Met services?

At the end of the day a Line Controller can be located anywhere with little more than a logbook and decent secure communications but it currently isn't quite the same for signalling control though it really ought to be possible to plant that anywhere too in future.

In other words the physical track and integrated signalling of the common lines is the ball and chain that continues to ensure that SSR and Picc are firmly tied together. I don't think the same applies to the Met/Jube because I have always expected Neasden to take full signalling control of the Jube once the upgrade is commissioned, at least that was the plan!

Merry Christmas to you both