using a train as protection

[Chris M]

tom said:

A good friend of mine was involved in the [colision at Stratford in 1984], he was an AET investigating a failure between Stratford and Leyton and the train he was using as his protection was hit from behind by the following train. Another AET was involved in a near miss in almost identical circumstances the year before.

I've just read this, and was wondering what the rules are (if any) about how to use a train as protection? Is there are distance that you should leave between you and the train, as I imagine that a stationary train hit from behind could easily be shoved forwards as a result of the collision?

[Colin]

Ok, let's have a bash at this...........

In the first instance, an accident similar to the stratford one (ie, tunnel section) is nigh on impossible now - back then, once a train had been tripped, and the trip arm was reset, any speed was possible. It was up to the driver to ensure he drove at a 'cautionary speed'.

These days, once a train trips past a signal, and the arm is reset, a circuit will (for 3 minutes) force the emergency brakes to apply if the train exceeds 10 mph. So if a train still managed to collide with the one in front, at 10 mph against the brakes on all cars.............well, i'd like to think it won't 'shove it' very far.

If a situation exist's where trains cannot be tripped, station-station working is put in. This means a train cannot leave a station until the preceeding train has departed the next station - hence only one train can remain in the section at any given time.

As for using a train for protection [in a tunnel section], in this instance (ie, emergency access), the train can only be used for up to 5 minutes. If the required work cannot be completed, but it is otherwise safe to run trains, the people needing the protection must start the process again.

No doubt the working reference manual details an exact distance limit for using a train as protection, but I must admit I haven't a clue what that may be. I'd suggest that a distance whereby the train operator can easily talk to the people on the track would be sensible.

[Deleted]

the distance should be the same as walking in front of a train in a siding or depot that is 20m

in the case of a relamp which is more the common reason why you would stop a train as protection it goes something like this is may not be the offical way but it is the way in the real world

1 ask controllers permission to stop a train
2 he will then tell you what train to use
3 get aboard train
4 tell driver roughly you would like him to stop
5 at location take the reverser key or RKL220 (train cannot move)
6 hop down and do the job (usually get 2 mins not 5)
7 give back reverser key or RKL220
8 either by train radio or nearest auto phone advise controller that staff is all clear of the track
9 train carrys on as per normal
10 driver gets upset because you just made him more later then he already was

for the exact rules regarding protection there is a whole section in the working manual what covers this but for stopping trains its the AC rules

[Deleted]

Not forgetting that station staff can use a train as protection if they need to go on the track for any reason.

I've never been trained to allow for any such distance, probably as COLIN said, such a collision is virtually impossible as the train to the rear would have time to stop and if it didn't would probably simply end up being coupled to the train in the front.

[Tubeboy]

As an added precaution, the key protection switches should be activated [turns all signals in the area to red] Particularly useful at junction locations.

[Deleted]

not all areas have these key switches only place on the district that has them are aldgate east and putney bridge (putney bridge only puts back WG15 rt1 and WG14 this is for the network rail possession)
the central has another way called code destroyers these destroy the ATP codes in the area thus stopping the train

[trainopd78]

Isn't there one by the stairs (coke machine) on the W/b at PG? Can't remember what signals it returns though, but I always point it out during hiking.

[Deleted]

tubeboy said:

As an added precaution, the key protection switches should be activated [turns all signals in the area to red] Particularly useful at junction locations.

and besides using a protection key switch is another form of protection. Operating a key switch and using a train as protection will cause unnecessary delay, unless its absolutely needed.

A common reason for using a train for protection, is a Tech Officer doing a relamp of a signal. Holding a train on the westbound for a minute or so and then getting on his way. Using a KPS is more than likely going to hold eastbound trains too.

In this scenario the T/O will have to operate the KPS, walk to site, do the job, walk back from site, return the KPS to normal. A very unnecessary delay if you ask me.

[Harsig]

lloyd said:

tubeboy said:

As an added precaution, the key protection switches should be activated [turns all signals in the area to red] Particularly useful at junction locations.

and besides using a protection key switch is another form of protection. Operating a key switch and using a train as protection will cause unnecessary delay, unless its absolutely needed.

A common reason for using a train for protection, is a Tech Officer doing a relamp of a signal. Holding a train on the westbound for a minute or so and then getting on his way. Using a KPS is more than likely going to hold eastbound trains too.

In this scenario the T/O will have to operate the KPS, walk to site, do the job, walk back from site, return the KPS to normal. A very unnecessary delay if you ask me.

There speaks a true signalman!

[mandgc]

The basic object of the signalling system is to keep trains a safe distance apart. If trains find themselves an unsafe distance apart it is probably due to some form of negligence by the following Train Operator. Taking posession of the Control Key by the Technition should be sufficient to prevent the protecting train from moving ( though I have been caught out, as a Guard, and nearly left behind by the Driver using his SPARE key from his bag rather than wait for me to take the forgotten Key up to him !!)
This should be sufficient protection for work to be carried out on the signalling using the protection of the stationary train. For work on the underside of the train I think I would want rather more protection !.
The' five minute' rule is to allow the Service to be kept moving - if neccesary of course if it takes half an hour to fix the fault so be it.

[Tom]

mandgc said:

The basic object of the signalling system is to keep trains a safe distance apart. If trains find themselves an unsafe distance apart it is probably due to some form of negligence by the following Train Operator. Taking posession of the Control Key by the Technition should be sufficient to prevent the protecting train from moving

Just a small point - normally the selector/reverser/RKL220 key is taken as removing the control key also kills the headlights and radio. Having the headlights on to give a bit more illumination than your torch can be quite helpful. They can also contribute to the heat and be a right pain!!!

[Colin]

mandgc said:

( though I have been caught out, as a Guard, and nearly left behind by the Driver using his SPARE key from his bag rather than wait for me to take the forgotten Key up to him !!)

That may have been acceptable in the past, but any train operator found to have a "spare key" these days would most likely be looking at a different career path in the future.

mandgc said:

For work on the underside of the train I think I would want rather more protection !.

Indeed - traction current off would be a good starter

[Deleted]

the key switches at pg and most sites are no longer wired up other places which have like a plunger on the platform was for the opo emergengy stop lights what never got commisioned or in some areas never got installed

[Deleted]

if its a track circuit failure and its deemed to be a broken wire now we have been told that traction current MUST be turned off as the met line staff had a little shock from the track hose

[Deleted]

colin said:

mandgc said:

( though I have been caught out, as a Guard, and nearly left behind by the Driver using his SPARE key from his bag rather than wait for me to take the forgotten Key up to him !!)

That may have been acceptable in the past, but any train operator found to have a "spare key" these days would most likely be looking at a different career path in the future.

Yes, having two sets of keys is definitely a bad idea! Although for some reason C stocks have a spare set in the toolbox...

[agoodcuppa]

adw said:

Although for some reason C stocks have a spare set in the toolbox...

All stocks used to have spares in the toolbox.

At least they were supposed to.

[mandgc]

"Spare Keys" (Replies11 & 14)

I have to say my experience was here in the Colonies and a few years ago now !

I am sure the practices now in force in London are rather more sophisticated though in the past I can recollect various forms of giving track circuit releases, etc. which were not quite the authorised method and perhaps I should express my heartfelt thanks to our Linemen at ********* for getting me out of many a scrape and sending the train on with 'no delay' !

I am sure LUL is running a lot safer nowadays than when I was let loose in the Signal Box. :-)

[mandgc]

Looking back at the ramblings in my Reply # 16 I asked myself " Are the Staff who have real resposibility for the safety of the passengers (ie: Drivers, Signalmen, Bus Drivers,etc.) really paid, or compensated, sufficiently for the responsibility?"

I have held many positions in the Transport Industry in my time ( London Transport, British Railways, South Australia, Melbourne Tramways and Victorian Railways and have to admit the better paid positions have been when I did not have responsibility for Safety but mearly for having a little knowledge on the subject. A slight error in drafting a Sectional Appendix Instruction will be picked up later without any fear of Passenger's safety being put a risk.

If money isn't everything maybe vulnerable workers deserve to work a shorter working week ?

[Deleted]

mandgc said:

"Spare Keys" (Replies11 & 14)

I have to say my experience was here in the Colonies and a few years ago now !

I am sure the practices now in force in London are rather more sophisticated though in the past I can recollect various forms of giving track circuit releases, etc. which were not quite the authorised method and perhaps I should express my heartfelt thanks to our Linemen at ********* for getting me out of many a scrape and sending the train on with 'no delay' !

I am sure LUL is running a lot safer nowadays than when I was let loose in the Signal Box. :-)

all i will say about this is deja-vu

[trainopd78]

aetearlscourt said:

the key switches at pg and most sites are no longer wired up other places which have like a plunger on the platform was for the opo emergengy stop lights what never got commisioned or in some areas never got installed

Thanks for that, no one informed us of the PG switches being OOC. You are worth your weight in gold with your specialist knowledge.

I think them OPO lights were a fantastic idea. It's a shame they weren't followed through.

[prjb]

The entire SSR will have Platform Emergency Stop Plungers (PESPS) in the future.

[Deleted]

Oh brother - Yet Another Acronym!!

Why aren't they just called "code destroyers"?

[prjb]

I guess because the newer systems don't use a code? This is genuinely a guess because signalling is not my area of expertise. Coming to think about it, neither is railway operations, but thats another story!! ;D

[District Dave]

prjb said:

Coming to think about it, neither is railway operations, but thats another story!! ;D

Makes you the ideal candidate for the job then?

(Sorry prjb - couldn't resist that )

[prjb]

districtdave said:

prjb said:

Coming to think about it, neither is railway operations, but thats another story!! ;D

Makes you the ideal candidate for the job then?

(Sorry prjb - couldn't resist that )

No, thats fine, bring it on.

_{Walks away feeling unloved and sad.....}

;D

[District Dave]

prjb said:

_{Walks away feeling unloved and sad.....}

;D

(Bit like I expect to feel when I get the response to my interview today then)

[prjb]

No, everyone feels like that after an interview. You can never fully judge what they are looking for and how you performed, mainly because your viewpoint is blurred by nerves etc. I reckon you will be 'ok', you certainly have the relevant operational experience. Chin up! ;D

[District Dave]

Thanks prjb.

You have a PM.

[Deleted]

Well, I thought I'd totally loused up the I/O interview last year, but here I am!

[Tom]

theonekea said:

Oh brother - Yet Another Acronym!!

Why aren't they just called "code destroyers"?

Because they don't destroy the code. They only remove it from a certain section of track.

Besides, the passengers understand the phrase 'Emergency Stop'.