Applying the rule!!!

[signalfailure]

Hi guys.
Just to refresh my memory is this correct? Had an discussion with a mate about how you apply the rule.


Say we are stuck south of wembely been held at a red stick for 3 minutes.

"Ladies and Gentlemen I apologize for the delay we are expieriencing, im not sure whats happening so i will call the signalman and try to get more information, i will then let you know whats happening. Thankyou"


T/Op: "Signalman, Ive been held at signal JP7 for the past 3 minutes, whats going on?"

S: "Driver we are currently expieriencing signalling problems in the wembely area permission granted to apply the rule then hold at your next red aspect"

So now im going to apply the rule. I guessing i do this.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I am sorry about the delay this is due to signalling problems in the wembley area. I have been instructed to go past this signal then we will be travelling at roughly 5 mph for 3 minutes. Please could you sit down or make sure you hold onto the railing in the cars. as you will feel the train move foward then come to a sudden stop"

Proceeding foward tripcock activated. Now i reset the safety systems then proceed as instructed

[Deleted]

Don't forget to tell the Sig/Ops your train no. location and direction nb/wb/eb/sb/round the twist etc!

[Tomcakes]

Are they allowed to tell passengers they're passing a signal at danger? Most would probably start screaming hysterically and think it's unsafe.

[c5]

tombeevers said:

Are they allowed to tell passengers they're passing a signal at danger? Most would probably start screaming hysterically and think it's unsafe.

A routine safety procedure is the terminology used...

If it is a SPAD certain expletives would probably be heard too - just not over the PA!

Going back to the beginning, depending on the location, line and radio capabilities you may well end up speaking to the Service Controller (even though you would at Wembley, even though they are Signalmen!!!! )

If the delay won't take too long, you would stay put, even if it is an Automatic signal, the Controller would say to wait for a clear signal if there was blocking back, or to apply their rule if the signal was failing.
Of course being London Underground, every line has its little differences!

[rookie]

dont forget the whistle..........wooooooooooooooooo,wooooooooooooooooooo. ;D ;D ;D

[Deleted]

and in a controlled area i.e JP the points would have to be clipped and scotched and someone usually station supervisor must walk the route first this only applies where cabins dont have point indications where cabins do then they implent route card working

[signalfailure]

o forgot about the location and train no.

Thanks guys!

[Colin]

signalfailure said:

Hi guys.
Just to refresh my memory is this correct? Had an discussion with a mate about how you apply the rule.

It's not quite correct - if I may, I'd like to take what you've said and make a few comments.....

signalfailure said:

Say we are stuck south of wembely been held at a red stick for 3 minutes.

"Ladies and Gentlemen I apologize for the delay we are expieriencing, im not sure whats happening so i will call the signalman and try to get more information, i will then let you know whats happening. Thankyou"

That's basically spot on, though management would like us to make an announcement after 30 seconds (proves we're in control apparently ), then start making enquiries after 2 minutes.

signalfailure said:

T/Op: "Signalman, Ive been held at signal JP7 for the past 3 minutes, whats going on?"

S: "Driver we are currently expieriencing signalling problems in the wembely area permission granted to apply the rule then hold at your next red aspect"

As has been mentioned, whilst the signal post telephone is an option, more often than not we'll talk to the controller on the radio (especially if it's raining!! ;D ;D). In any case, once a failure has been established, we'll be told to "apply the appropriate procedure". This is important for 2 reasons:
1) the line controller cannot authorise a train past any signal
2) the type & location of the signal will depend on what happens next

As has been said, points have to scotched & clipped - a failed station starter would need station staff for an "assisted dispatch", etc. The type of signal would also dictate whether the train op actually needs authority (ie, train operators don't actually need to be given authority to pass an auto providing they follow the correct procedure and establish the signal has failed).

signalfailure said:

So now im going to apply the rule. I guessing i do this.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I am sorry about the delay this is due to signalling problems in the wembley area. I have been instructed to go past this signal then we will be travelling at roughly 5 mph for 3 minutes. Please could you sit down or make sure you hold onto the railing in the cars. as you will feel the train move foward then come to a sudden stop"

Again almost right, but as JTD says, we say it's a routine procedure then we'll tell 'em to hold tight (sit down if possible) as the train will move forward and stop suddenly.

Once we've tripped & re-set, we'll do another PA to explain that the train will continue at a slow speed for a while before resuming 'normal' speed again. We won't give a time as on LUL the train must pass two consecutive stop signals showing a clear aspect before we can resume full line speed - the train may have a time limit of 3 mins, but that has no bearing on how long we remain at a maximum of 10 mph - remember, this is a signal system safety procedure not a train equipment one!!

signalfailure said:

Proceeding foward tripcock activated. Now i reset the safety systems then proceed as instructed

That bit seems to have come a little out of sequence - unless you are confusing LUL procedure with Network Rail procedure - which is what it looks like taking your post as a whole.

On Network Rail, the signaller is God - we literally act on whatever he or she say's. So if he or she say's resume full line speed at the next signal, we will (subject to the trains 3 minute time limit). On LUL though, it's two stop signals showing a clear aspect......every time.

And working on the District can certainly get confusing because we have both rules to follow, depending where we are on the line.

[Tubeboy]

I remember I was on a train once, driver said he was passing the signal at danger with authority etc etc [Was on the Green line as well]

Not you was it Colin? ;D

[signalfailure]

Hey COLIN!

Thanks for the really indepth post! helped a lot!! your a great man!

[Deleted]

Or, Colin, if we are on a train of refurbished D stock we can at the appropriate time prod the relevan buttons on the DVA systems with will then announce and appear visually on the interior dot matrix indicators (for the specific benefit of the hard of hearing)...

"Attention ! This train is about to move slowly forward and then stop suddenly. Please use any seats available, or if standing, hold on tight. Following this routine safety proceedure we continue moving at a reduced speed"

Yes, Yes ..I know exactly what it says as I have it recorded on my mobile phone

In fact, the train will not necessarily move slowly forward before being tripped, it must move forward at sufficient speed to get tripped and clear the arm of the trainstop. Failure to clear the trainstop arm will prevent the tripcock being reset and require numerous additional steps to be taken much delaying the onward movement of the train.

[signalfailure]

I think that pre-recorded message is on the Northern line too.. The signal south of east finchley (controlled i think) went for broke and we had to apply the rule not once but twice.
Me being cocky i didnt think it would break that hard. Bumped my head

[mrfs42]

Would I be right in thinking that the rules about applying the rule have been altered over the years?

I thinking about how long you can wait at a signal before starting to do whatever it says in Sectiion G.

I'm sure I've read 2 minutes in a 1969 rule book and 3 minutes in a 1984.

[Colin]

tubeboy said:

I remember I was on a train once, driver said he was passing the signal at danger with authority etc etc [Was on the Green line as well]

Not you was it Colin? ;D

Maybe I have had to "apply the appropriate procedure" far too many times in my short space of time as a train op.

mrfs42 said:

Would I be right in thinking that the rules about applying the rule have been altered over the years?

I thinking about how long you can wait at a signal before starting to do whatever it says in Sectiion G.

I'm sure I've read 2 minutes in a 1969 rule book and 3 minutes in a 1984.

Having just double checked in the new rule books issued last month to ensure I'm right (and thankfully I am! ;D ;D), we must wait 2 minutes. It has been this way for all of my 6 years on LUL.

Mind you, on Network Rail, a driver is supposed to get on the phone straight away at any red signal - needless to say common sense usually prevails and most drivers will wait a short period of time depending on the location.............or course if you know for a fact that the train ahead is the reason......

[Deleted]

colin said:

This is important for 2 reasons:
1) the line controller cannot authorise a train past any signal
2) the type & location of the signal will depend on what happens next

As has been said, points have to scotched & clipped - a failed station starter would need station staff for an "assisted dispatch", etc. The type of signal would also dictate whether the train op actually needs authority (ie, train operators don't actually need to be given authority to pass an auto providing they follow the correct procedure and establish the signal has failed).

Erm not quite - firstly, on the Central for some time, and recently on the Northern too, the controller can give authority over the radio to apply the rule. This is because the radio is deemed to be secure - i.e. it is secure, one-to-one so you can be sure you're talking to the correct train and no-one else can overhear and misunderstand. On the Northern (not sure about the Central but probably the same - see OSN64 for the Northern, been in force since March) it can only be used for signals without points involved, or where there is remote securing - if the points have to be scotched and clipped then authority must be given face-to-face or via the SPT.

Also, if there is remote securing available, or route card, the points don't have to be scotched and clipped if it is the signal which has failed. Obviously if the points have failed they need to be secured.

tfc

[Colin]

You are quite correct 'tfc' - however I would expect that the specific phrase "apply the appropriate procedure driver" must surely be relevant given all the scenarios you mention.

As we all know, auto's don't specifically need authorisation, semi's do - given that in the case of the Central & Northern lines, the controller can only authorise [past a semi] where no points exist............whilst your point is of course valid, I didn't feel the need to mention it given the small number of signals involved ;D ;D ;D

[Chris M]

colin said:

On Network Rail, the signaller is God - we literally act on whatever he or she say's. So if he or she say's resume full line speed at the next signal, we will (subject to the trains 3 minute time limit). On LUL though, it's two stop signals showing a clear aspect......every time.

And working on the District can certainly get confusing because we have both rules to follow, depending where we are on the line.

What happens at the boundary between LU and NR? Do you apply the rule of whoever controls the signal that broke, regardless if this is the last before you change infrastructure?

[Deleted]

as i work in cabins that are lu/nr boundaried, i would in that instance call my nr counterpart on our direct line to establish if there are any problems, if all is ok i would allow the drver to proceed. yesterday however an empty stock drive driver called as he was detained for quite a while at the s/b boundary signal, my collegue used some common sense and saw on the system that there were quite a few waiting to get into marylebone

[Deleted]

We recently had cause to seek clarification on this one, the last LUL signal on the Wimbledon branch had developed a taste for returing to danger in the face of oncoming trains, including mine, resulting in no fault SPADs.

Our Line Standards Manager confirmed the rule to be applied is the rule of the track owner on whose track you will be continuing to traverse, which makes sence, the actual procedure at the signal is pretty much the same, the difference comes in what you do after.

So at the last LUL signal you proceed under the NR rule and at the last NR signal you proceed under LUL rule.

(as SomerHimpson says the two signal operators must reach a complete understanding before any authorisations are given to the driver)

[Deleted]

colin said:

As we all know, auto's don't specifically need authorisation, semi's do - given that in the case of the Central & Northern lines, the controller can only authorise [past a semi] where no points exist............whilst your point is of course valid, I didn't feel the need to mention it given the small number of signals involved ;D ;D ;D

Not quite - it can also be done where remote securing is available, provided the driver can see the RS visual.