Euston Square concourse and lifts

[SE13]

Feb 1, 2011 17:49:54 GMT @21146 said:

Whilst I'm not a Mod on here it occurs to me we should sometimes not be too-specific when posting details of LU/NR Comms networks that may still be in use and would provide excellent targets for terrorists should they be able to ascertain which key points to take out.

I'm not altogether sure that any "specific" places have been marked out, more that there are dozens of places within a station these could be, and we all knew that anyway as there's mazes and mazes of tunnelling and things Joe Public hasn't got a clue about. We all see those gates or hoardings blocking things off, and know they must go somewhere, but we know not where nor why.

However, I'll flag this so that all the team can cast an eye

[railtechnician]

Feb 1, 2011 17:49:54 GMT @21146 said:

Whilst I'm not a Mod on here it occurs to me we should sometimes not be too-specific when posting details of LU/NR Comms networks that may still be in use and would provide excellent targets for terrorists should they be able to ascertain which key points to take out.

I have not been specific or detailed and in fact have been deliberately vague.
With the continual turnover in staff throughout LT/LU there are literally thousands of ex-employees from all departments with very detailed personal knowledge of what is behind the scenes in all disciplines. Since the devolution of engineering from the 1980s and the many direct contractors and subcontractors used since then there are thousands more.

However, as even posting vague references is frowned upon I will henceforth refrain from mentioning anything further about any aspect of LT/LU engineering, infrastructure or facilities.

[superteacher]

Feb 1, 2011 22:08:31 GMT railtechnician said:

Feb 1, 2011 17:49:54 GMT @21146 said:

Whilst I'm not a Mod on here it occurs to me we should sometimes not be too-specific when posting details of LU/NR Comms networks that may still be in use and would provide excellent targets for terrorists should they be able to ascertain which key points to take out.

I have not been specific or detailed and in fact have been deliberately vague.
With the continual turnover in staff throughout LT/LU there are literally thousands of ex-employees from all departments with very detailed personal knowledge of what is behind the scenes in all disciplines. Since the devolution of engineering from the 1980s and the many direct contractors and subcontractors used since then there are thousands more.

However, as even posting vague references is frowned upon I will henceforth refrain from mentioning anything further about any aspect of LT/LU engineering, infrastructure or facilities.

Please don't! I, like many others, find your insights fascinating and informative. Don't be put off just because some people have nothing better to do than to interfere. Quite how anyone could get up to something bad from the info you share is a mystery to me. I really don't get where 21146 is coming from.

[mrfs42]

Feb 1, 2011 22:08:31 GMT railtechnician said:

However, as even posting vague references is frowned upon I will henceforth refrain from mentioning anything further about any aspect of LT/LU engineering, infrastructure or facilities.

Please continue as you were, RT.

None of your exceptionally informative and enlightening posts have given me cause for concern either as a Moderator of this forum or someone who knows of what you write.

We must be chary of needlessly creating a culture of fear; particularly when said information is already in the public domain.

[rincew1nd]

Feb 1, 2011 22:49:45 GMT mrfs42 said:

Please continue as you were, RT.

+1!

[Ben]

+2; you've made some of the most engrossing posts on the forum without ever jeopardising anything. Please keep on going!!!

[21146]

As someone who was ask to delete my entire 10,000+ Flickr account photos late last year by someone from TFL "security", I in the end compensated (with pressure upon me) by agreeing to remove pix of depots (anti-graffiti) and of current depot control towers (anti-terrorism). I refused to remove images of signal boxes as some of these are lettered publicly as such, whilst the other 90% are disused anyway. I was also told to remove pix of disused platforms, which I did, until I found various websites devoted to same. I just felt that with Comms and Power, sometimes it's in the forum's interest not to be too detailed in location. Other people obviously have their own views which I would also respect.

"The wooden doors beneath the stairs at the back end of XXXXX platform X have the NR main distribution frame (MDF) which connects to the Chiltern line from the NR ring that runs right around the Circle to link all the main London terminal stations"

[21146]

Feb 2, 2011 0:19:26 GMT Ben said:

+2; you've made some of the most engrossing posts on the forum without ever jeopardising anything. Please keep on going!!!

And I agree with that, just thinking it's always good to be a little cautious on some issues. BTW 'RT' I find your posts really informative too and don't want to see them stop either. Don't be offended, I've been slapped down by other posters on here, and by Mods (not that you have), but I'm still here.

[Ben]

You were asked to purge your account?! There really are some utter pencil pushers out there. Hopefully the recession gives them something else to masticate over.

There are websites with pics of disused platforms/ststions, signalling both inside and outside buildings

In fact just googeling 'lul depot', XXXXXXXXXXXX. Which is itself public domain from ofgem.

The whole question of safety is just ludicrous, people are always the taget not infrastructure.

Or you could just read about depot saftey on tubelines website. However there are far less pictures of depots modern day. Presumably its been pushed fairly hard. So pointless.

[mrfs42]

Feb 2, 2011 0:25:58 GMT @21146 said:

"The wooden doors beneath the stairs at the back end of Baker Street platform 6 have the NR main distribution frame (MDF) which connects to the Chiltern line from the NR ring that runs right around the Circle to link all the main London terminal stations"

Ah - you're clearly not into telecomms - a MDF isn't quite what you might think from the use of the word 'Main' - it is only the end point for that location and there will be I(ntermediate)DFs elsewhere within that location, rather than on the ring. Naturally there will be other cables that bypass that MDF completely, ensuring system integrity when the MDF in question is isolated for maintenance.

[21146]

Feb 2, 2011 0:45:51 GMT Ben said:

You were asked to purge your account?! There really are some utter pencil pushers out there. Hopefully the recession gives them something else to masticate over.

There are websites with pics of disused platforms/ststions, signalling both inside and outside buildings

In fact just googeling 'lul depot', the first link is a pdf giving addresses for tube 22kV intake points to the entire system. Which is itself public domain from ofgem.

The whole question of safety is just ludicrous, people are always the taget not infrastructure.

Or you could just read about depot saftey on tubelines website. However there are far less pictures of depots modern day. Presumably its been pushed fairly hard. So pointless.

Yes I was ordered to attend TFL IT Dept Security Manager's office at Faith Lawson House in Dacre Street SW1, where I would be "allowed" access to Flickr via the TFL Intranet (link barred about 6 months' earlier), and under supervision delete the lot like a nawty schoolboy in the headmaster's office. In fact lower grade managers in my dept at work intervened first, not that I would have done it anyway.

[21146]

Feb 2, 2011 0:48:36 GMT mrfs42 said:

Feb 2, 2011 0:25:58 GMT @21146 said:

"The wooden doors beneath the stairs at the back end of Baker Street platform 6 have the NR main distribution frame (MDF) which connects to the Chiltern line from the NR ring that runs right around the Circle to link all the main London terminal stations"

Ah - you're clearly not into telecomms - a MDF isn't quite what you might think from the use of the word 'Main' - it is only the end point for that location and there will be I(ntermediate)DFs elsewhere within that location, rather than on the ring. Naturally there will be other cables that bypass that MDF completely, ensuring system integrity when the MDF in question is isolated for maintenance.

Fair enough!

[21146]

I suppose we're veering-off topic several degrees here but it does sort of raise the area of data acquired though employment. So it was put to me by TFL, you have (maybe) 60-odd pix taken in LU depots posted on-line, how did you get these, who did you ask, were you on-duty, were you off-duty, what permission did you have? Are you posting photos that you could only obtain through being employed by LU, have you gained advantage from this? (Well not financial, anyway). I don't suppose this was the case in the days of Ian Allan ABCs.

[21146]

That's why most of the views of my visit to New Cross Gate LO depot isn't on my site either.

[railtechnician]

Feb 1, 2011 22:49:45 GMT mrfs42 said:

Feb 1, 2011 22:08:31 GMT railtechnician said:

However, as even posting vague references is frowned upon I will henceforth refrain from mentioning anything further about any aspect of LT/LU engineering, infrastructure or facilities.

Please continue as you were, RT.

None of your exceptionally informative and enlightening posts have given me cause for concern either as a Moderator of this forum or someone who knows of what you write.

We must be chary of needlessly creating a culture of fear; particularly when said information is already in the public domain.

My mind is, I'm afraid, made up. While 21146 has not offended me in any way his comment has made me consider my position. I have always chosen my words carefully (excepting the occasional typo or loss of concentration) but it would be all too easy to slip up and post a detail unintentionally. As I have said to 21146 in reply to his gracious PM, "peace of mind is a powerful stimulant". I can't help the detailed knowledge that I have of LU borne out of a long, interesting and varied career but it can at times be a burden so it's better to push it to the back of my mind and try to forget it.

[Colin]

LU staff admin comment

As a member of LU staff with knowledge of some of the stuff railtechnician has written about in this thread, I have to admit to feeling less than comfortable with some of the detail. Note the usage of the word 'some', and the phrase "less than comfortable" - their usage is quite deliberate.

We all know that much of LU's signalling, amongst other infrastructure, is decades old. It is therefore quite obvious that much of what's been described in this thread, although dated in the 70's and 80's, will be just as valid today as it was back then and can therefore be considered extremely relevant even today. I would therefore urge caution in the future as despite describing something from 30 or 40 years ago, you could just as well be describing something that is still just as valid today.

One other point that cannot be ignored:

Feb 2, 2011 0:45:51 GMT Ben said:

In fact just googeling 'lul depot', the first link is a pdf giving addresses for tube 22kV intake points to the entire system. Which is itself public domain from ofgem.

The whole question of safety is just ludicrous, people are always the taget not infrastructure.

Or you could just read about depot saftey on tubelines website. However there are far less pictures of depots modern day. Presumably its been pushed fairly hard. So pointless.

As the blue information section attached to forum rule 7 says: "In the past, members have posted items of sensitive information they've found within websites elsewhere on the internet - just because it's on another website, it doesn't mean we'll allow it here; the forum staff cannot 'police' other websites, but we are responsible for what appears on this forum. "

That effectively applies to your post Ben - just because something is available elsewhere that does not mean its an automatically justified reason for posting something similar here.

[Ben]

I deliberately did not post a link to it because of that rule. My point is the murky nature of what is or isn't allowed not just here but in general.

[21146]

Another classic statement I got from this TFL IT Dept manager was that was "strictly prohibited" for any TFL staff to post "any" photos taken of LU on the internet and if done so it was considered a gross breach of security (or similar). This would seem to include enthusiast pix of public areas taken in ones' own time. He's going to have to get a lot of sites taken down isn't he?

[suncloud]

Feb 2, 2011 19:46:03 GMT @21146 said:

Another classic statement I got from this TFL IT Dept manager was that was "strictly prohibited" for any TFL staff to post "any" photos taken of LU on the internet and if done so it was considered a gross breach of security (or similar). This would seem to include enthusiast pix of public areas taken in ones' own time. He's going to have to get a lot of sites taken down isn't he?

Perhaps he should visit the Press and Marketing depts... And the LTM...

[Deleted]

Back to the topic -

Feb 1, 2011 0:02:42 GMT andypurk said:

It will be quite expensive to construct, given the shallow depth of the Sub-Surface line platforms below Euston Road and the layout of the surrounding buildings.

Really? By my reckoning the East end of the ES platforms must be almost at Melton Street anyway. All tunnels are expensive to construct, but a sub-surface bridge across the platforms with lifts would probably squeeze into the existing clearance, and a pedestrian tunnel under Melton Street linking to a ticket hall under Euston Square Gardens would be a similar sized project to the Kings X western ticket hall and connections surely? The final hundred metres or so to Euston tube proper, well that's practically through the basement of 40 Melton St isn't it? Can't see that being a big deal either.

[Deleted]

(of course adding Eastward platform extensions into the project would add a fair whack, but it would make sense).