Fulham Broadway Starters

[Deleted]

i once seeing on here somewhere about the starters at fulham having the LED repeater in the monitors (unable to find thread) when i was there last night on a job i played around with them both and they will only ever show one aspect as they are wired to the GR (Signal Relay) and if you removed the air to the trainstop (usually giving a dual aspect) the LED monitor repeater just gives a green so to all you district drivers beware you never know it might just catch you out one day

with a dual aspect this is wot happens

Green = lit up GR energised
Red = lit up but being fed via the trainstop being in the up/on position

[Colin]

The relevant thread was THIS ONE.

Can I just say, aetearlscourt, you are a god!! Thank you for proving me right ;D ;D ;D

[trainopd78]

colin said:

The relevant thread was THIS ONE.

Can I just say, aetearlscourt, you are a god!! Thank you for proving me right ;D ;D ;D

and me.

[Deleted]

yes my children

[happybunny]

Does the same thing apply at Edgware Road?

[Deleted]

i dunno but usually something is wired up to a standard so it should be the same where ever you see these LED monitor repeaters

[Deleted]

Thanks for the follow-up Mr. AET

[happybunny]

I think they are a great idea. They should be installed on stations like St James Park (I can't remember EB or WB but one of them you can hardly see the started when stopped at the screens) and maybe Ealing common EB and West ken EB. Would be a good aid to drivers

[Deleted]

happybunny said:

I think they are a great idea. They should be installed on stations like St James Park (I can't remember EB or WB but one of them you can hardly see the started when stopped at the screens) and maybe Ealing common EB and West ken EB. Would be a good aid to drivers

It's St James Park e/b, and you have, by chance, quoted my three top station SPAD traps, that I have quoted here several times ! At none of these can you see the starter signal from the cab seat when berthed at the normal stopping point. (I am surprised LUL / Metronet continue to get away with the sightings at these locations).

Ealing Common e/b is interesting for the fact they put in a co-acting signal ...and managed to put that where it can't be seen either !!! (And confirmed in another venue that it can't be seen from a 1973 or a D !!)



St James's has certainly been SPADed recently.

[Deleted]

Ealing Common E/B co-acting can be seen at the same time as the monitors if you stop in exactly the right place, but the margin for error is about 3 inches!

St James's Park E/B is one I particularly don't like as an I/O because I have to get up off the trainer's seat to see it!

[Tom]

happybunny said:

Does the same thing apply at Edgware Road?

If you mean OP7 and OP30, the answer is no.

They can display dual aspects as they are true co-acting signals.

(Designed by me!)

[Colin]

happybunny said:

I think they are a great idea.

They would be, if they didn't.....

aetearlscourt said:

only ever show one aspect as they are wired to the GR (Signal Relay) and if you removed the air to the trainstop (usually giving a dual aspect) the LED monitor repeater just gives a green so to all you district drivers beware you never know it might just catch you out one day

happybunny said:

They should be installed on stations like St James Park (I can't remember EB or WB but one of them you can hardly see the started when stopped at the screens) and maybe Ealing common EB and West ken EB. Would be a good aid to drivers

I completely disagree!! What 'they' should be doing is moving these signals to a place where they can be clearly seen by the person they're intended for - that's what we're told when being hand signalled in Ealing Common depot, and the same ought to be norm on the 'mainline'.

If a second signal aspect is absolutely necessary at a station starter, it should be a proper co-actor - repeaters such as these only serve to cause potential confusion.

[District Dave]

Firstly, thanks Pat for confirming what the situation is at Fulham Bdwy. Personally I always tell trainees not to accept the LED's as 'gospel' and to always check the actual signal - this gives me more ammunition to back up my position.

Secondly, I'm with Colin in that poorly located signals should be relocated and not got round by the expedient of a shortcut!

In the case of St James e/b (and w/b isn't much better!) why cannot they be properly resited - in the way that the starters at Westminster were?

Personally I've never found Eacling Common to be a problem (though I agree it's far rom perfect) but West Ken is a nightmare, made worse because it's so rarely at Danger..........

[Dstock7080]

I see, (at last!) there is a recent development on this post- namely that a new signal head has been erected slightly further east from the problematic A681.

Is this to be a 're-site' or a 'co-acting' ??

[Tom]

Resite. I was on the sighting committee concerned and refused to sign up to a co-actor.

[Tom]

Sept 19, 2007 13:44:08 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

i once seeing on here somewhere about the starters at fulham having the LED repeater in the monitors (unable to find thread) when i was there last night on a job i played around with them both and they will only ever show one aspect as they are wired to the GR (Signal Relay)

That would be due to the GPR in the circuit - only used for the OPO repeater!

[Colin]

To say I'm pleased work is progressing on this signal is an understatement.........yippeeee!! ;D ;D ;D

[Colin]

I've been through there only a few times since the update about the re-site of A681 (Annual leave plus Upminster duties are mainly Ealings & Richmonds! )......but until today I had forgotten each time to either look for the new position or make sure I was bang on the stopping mark.

Today I managed both and...........is it too late to get the new head re-sited again? It's still too bloomin close!

I have to lean slightly forward when correctly berthed to see the new head, and if I ever so slightly misjudge it and go just a tad too far (like six inches), I'm stuffed as it will be right where the cab nearside corner post is. I cannot be the only driver that is gonna continue to have difficulty seeing this signal.

It needs to be another two foot further east to be totally effective otherwise it's gonna be a complete waste of time and money, and the SPADs will keep on coming......

[chrish]

They were talking the other day about the fact it was going to be lowered a bit. I am not sure if it has happened already or not... but then I can't see what the issue with the original height actually was. Anyone got any ideas?

I agree with Colin, it should be further away from the stopping mark... but for D stock use only for me.. I tend to stop C stocks a bit earlier to ensure I can see signal and monitors.

[Tom]

Jan 7, 2009 19:29:11 GMT Colin said:

I've been through there only a few times since the update about the re-site of A681 (Annual leave plus Upminster duties are mainly Ealings & Richmonds! )......but until today I had forgotten each time to either look for the new position or make sure I was bang on the stopping mark.

Today I managed both and...........is it too late to get the new head re-sited again? It's still too bloomin close!

Colin, I know exactly what you are saying, but we can't.

Any move further back will mean that you can be falsely tripped on the signal. The trainstop can't be moved because it reduces the overlap below the calculated figure.

It's not great I know, but we do anything about it without it costing a lot more. (I initially wanted to move the trainstop, but was told we couldn't do it.)

[Colin]

Was consideration given to moving the OPO equipment back to it's original position (after all, this is the root cause of the current problem)?

Or is that a more awkward proposition?

[Tom]

As awkward. It would involve relocating the CSDE and would make the PTI worse as part of the train would be on a curve. Which, ironically, is the very reason it was moved to its present location.

[Colin]

You couldn't make it up could you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Dstock7080]

i finally found the pic showing the original signal location:
tinyurl.com/kpan8s

[Colin]

Now that is an original!! how things change....

[Tom]

That was the pic I'd seen as well. I think it pre-dates the 1980s resignalling.

[mrfs42]

I agree, I think I've possibly got a drawing/some notes for that area pre-1985 (somewhere). Unfortunately, it just misses that bit of the plan in the 1960 IRSE paper on the Putney Line programme machines (which I can find) and I'm pretty sure I've got the opening perils for Parsons Green and West Ken (which might have some info on the edges of the maps). I shall have a rummage. If the filing gods smile, I might even be able to turn out the TC for the introduction of OPO in that neck of the woods, which could help.

It would be interesting to see exactly how many signals there were between Walham Green and West Brompton. As a pure guess it was A681/R683 A683/R685 A685/R687 A687/R689 A689 struckthrough meaning that they've been removed.

[railtechnician]

Jun 16, 2009 23:07:37 GMT mrfs42 said:

I agree, I think I've possibly got a drawing/some notes for that area pre-1985 (somewhere). Unfortunately, it just misses that bit of the plan in the 1960 IRSE paper on the Putney Line programme machines (which I can find) and I'm pretty sure I've got the opening perils for Parsons Green and West Ken (which might have some info on the edges of the maps). I shall have a rummage. If the filing gods smile, I might even be able to turn out the TC for the introduction of OPO in that neck of the woods, which could help.

It would be interesting to see exactly how many signals there were between Walham Green and West Brompton. As a pure guess it was A681/R683 A683/R685 A685/R687 A687/R689 A689 struckthrough meaning that they've been removed.

I recall the changeover following the resignalling of Earls Court/West Brompton/Fulham Broadway in my first year on Signal New Works in 1977 IIRC. I just did the one night on that job as I was a Whitechapel man and it was AFAIR an Earls Court project. I started life with LT at the end of April that year and soon moved to nights, I still recall getting the tube 38? stock staff train from Earls Court to West Brompton and being ribbed about my clean overalls and new boots so I guess it was perhaps around June/July.
I don't know if that helps at all.

[mrfs42]

It does help, thank-you. I'll have a scull through the traffic circulars as I've got some 'ordinary' TCs from 1977.

I've found the opening notice for Parsons Green, and the map ends just where the information is wanted. There is a clue, in that the last signal shewn going east is A681^B/R681^C & RWE 683.

I'll keep on digging.

[mrfs42]

Hmm. Doesn't look very promising - no clues in the 1974 or 1983 working regulations (not even the speed restriction under the West London line is referenced to a signal), nothing in the 1985 OPO introduction TC.

I've found a curious hint to direction lever working between the Putneys - but that is a question for another place.

West Brompton EB starter was ECX 693 in 1966, so it looks as if there were signals numbered in the range WE683, 685, 687, 689, 691 between Walham Green and West Brompton. There was a two lever groundframe at West Brompton (originally in the centre of the station, then off to the west), hence the use of WE. I don't think I can get a better answer than that - can anyone else help?