Bakerloo & East London

[Deleted]

When the Bakerloo is re-extended back to Watford Junction and the Overground network cut back to Queen's Park (which was the plan I last heard was going to happen) will the track stay with NR as now or will it transfer to LUL especially if the Met ever gets to Watford via Croxley link? Or will we have the reverse of the ELR (East London Railway) where NR standard trains run over LUL infrastructure? As the 'DC' lines aren't really connected to the main line is there a case for moving them over to LUL?

[Oracle]

There used to be..is there still?....a connection from the DC lines to the mains at Watford Junction. At times the DCs have been used as a diversionary route for main line trains and I distinctly remember seeing a photo of an HST at Willesden Junction LL. The problem was at the time that ML trains could only run at 15-minute intervals.

On reflection, the DC lines are of course connected into the main system at Willesden/Wembley and also into the North London Line at Willesden Junction. I can imagine a deal being struck a la Wimbledon branch though.

[Deleted]

I have also seen a HST at Wembley Central, coming off the Watford DC lines under the WCML bridge south of the aforementioned station...

What was I thinking to say Park?

[c5]

tubeoperator92 said:

I have also seen a HST at Wembley Pk, coming off the Watford DC lines under the WCML bridge south of the aforementioned station...

Wembley Park

[Deleted]

Thank you for correcting me... I blame it on tiredness coupled to a barrier wagon dead earlies.

[Deleted]

I see no reason to transfer the track to LU - although the end of the DC line service is nigh, it makes sense to retain the status quo until the Class 376 derivatives arrive and LO is able to begin mixing & matching the routings. Once that happens, a decision can be made regarding the ownership of the fixed assets.

[Deleted]

But aren't TfL planning on cuttung back LO when the new Victoria line trains kick in? Putting the entrie DC operation on Bakerloo hands.

[metman]

I think from 2010 they can start moving some of the 67/72mk1s to the Bakerloo. They will need some modification first tho. The Victoria line trains are formed DM-T-T-DM+DM-T-T-DM but the Bakerloo trains are formed DM-T-T-DM-UNDM-ST-DM. The problem is there are no UNDM on the Victoria so trains will be 7 cars with 4 cabs rather than 3! The trains will also be a little longer-but this shouldn't be a problem. The point that concerns me is the trailer on the 3 car 72ts is a special trailer-with 2 brake units (one for the DM and the UNDM), on the 67ts each trailer has 1 brake unit each. I don't know what will happen here

[Oracle]

Further to my earlier post the Silverlink Swansong tour is apparently using 2x37s and 8 cars and will be traversing the DC lines as far as the connection just south of Watford Junction, thence on to the Down Fast. I assume that the opposite is Up Fast > Up DC.

I query how much work will be required to provide working 4th rail for the Bakerloo if and when it returns to Watford.

[mrfs42]

The 4th rail is still there, but only used as an additional traction return for the negative. All the cross bonding will need to be removed and the rail put back on its pots. There's an AWFUL lot of measurements written on the head - wheter this is tied in with reinstatement I don't know.

Looking at the ramps I wouldn't be too surprised if some of them have been there since opening!!

[loughtonsiding]

oracle said:

Further to my earlier post the Silverlink Swansong tour is apparently using 2x37s and 8 cars and will be traversing the DC lines as far as the connection just south of Watford Junction, thence on to the Down Fast. I assume that the opposite is Up Fast > Up DC.

There is just a single lead trailing from Up DC to Down Fast, preceded by a facing crossover, Down DC to Up DC. The conductor rail extends far enough onto the Down Fast to allow a 313 to change to AC. There is no convenient way to perform a corresponding movement in the Up direction.

[Oracle]

So any train running in the Up direction would have to cross over to the Down Fast before Watford and run wrong line? I am sure that there was in the past a double connection from the DCs to the Mains.

Thanks anyway for the info!

[Deleted]

mrfs42 said:

The 4th rail is still there, but only used as an additional traction return for the negative. All the cross bonding will need to be removed and the rail put back on its pots. There's an AWFUL lot of measurements written on the head - wheter this is tied in with reinstatement I don't know.

Looking at the ramps I wouldn't be too surprised if some of them have been there since opening!!

You don't need to remove the cross-bonding - in fact it will need to stay if the Overground continues to run to Watford. In fact, you probably don't need to remove it at all - there's no reason not to retain it.

[metman]

Maybe a dual system will be operated at first as it is btw Queens Pk and Harrow. The neg rail can be on pots but bonded to the running rails as it is on the Gunnersbury-Richmond route. This would allow B/loo and O/Grd trains to run together in the short term before a couple of w/ends of closures to reconnect the neg rail to the 4 system. This won't happen until 2010 at least!

[Oracle]

There is no convenient way to perform a corresponding movement in the Up direction.

It would appear at first glance that you would have to run wrong line from Tring? Unless there is a #-over south of there.

[loughtonsiding]

oracle said:

It would appear at first glance that you would have to run wrong line from Tring? Unless there is a #-over south of there.

Using it in the Up direction isn't really an option. The third-rail is provided through the lead in order to allow 313s to switch to AC and make their way to Bletchley.

In addition, the Track Access Agreement between Network Rail and Scotrail (for the sleepers) includes it as a diversionary route for Down trains only; viz: "From London Euston to Watford Junction via the DC lines and in the down direction for emergency purposes only".

The connection is also used by DC stock to gain access to the washing plant and its adjacent ('Tip') siding, so a signalled route is provided from Down Fast to the DC lines and wash. So an Up train could access the DC lines by this route if shunted across into the Down Fast platform road.

[Oracle]

It's authoratitive and well-written pieces of information like this that should be stored away for reference in the future! Thank you.

[loughtonsiding]

Coincidentally, it appears that a loco-hauled railtour, top and tailed by two Class 37s, ran over the Down DC on Saturday. The tour was the 'Silverlink Swansong', and is repeated next week but with a Class 50 substituted for one of the 37s:

tinyurl.com/2ykdlg

[Oracle]

Yes I mentioned it on the 2nd. On the "other" forum some guys have posted photos of the train on the GOBLIN and NLL.

[Tubeboy]

oracle said:

Further to my earlier post the Silverlink Swansong tour is apparently using 2x37s and 8 cars and will be traversing the DC lines as far as the connection just south of Watford Junction, thence on to the Down Fast. I assume that the opposite is Up Fast > Up DC.

I query how much work will be required to provide working 4th rail for the Bakerloo if and when it returns to Watford.

It wil be 7 carriages for each trip.