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Post by jardine01 on Mar 10, 2011 17:13:34 GMT
Does anybody know if there is any plans for the Waterloo and city line to go ATO? Although i dont know if they could do that with it been quite a short line?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 10, 2011 17:39:43 GMT
Length of line wouldn't make any difference to the principal. Considering the line had to wait 52 years for new trains last time, its doubtful anything will happen for some time. However perhaps it could become the first NOPO line at some point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2011 18:11:42 GMT
Does anybody know if there is any plans for the Waterloo and city line to go ATO? Although i dont know if they could do that with it been quite a short line? Assuming the likely expense of implementation, how much more efficient would an end to end short-arsed-no-stops-in-between route like the W&C be in ATO or with an attendant instead of a train operator? And would it be financially viable? |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 10, 2011 22:18:12 GMT
Stops are possible in-between:  Drain by rincewindthefailedwizard, on Flickr This is SimSig's representation of The Drain, though it's really based on NSE days rather than LU. Signals with an R next to them are Distant/Repeater signals, these cannot show a STOP aspect. However, it shows STOP signals in the pipe between the stations, indeed, if you want you can turn off ATO (aka ARS in SimSig, with all trains set to perform fantastically; I've even turned off points/signalling failures and the like*) and let the computer do it all. I tried that, intervening when it asked me, and my score was less than 50% of trains on time. * I did giggle when a train was delayed "Due to the wrong kind of food trolley"... |
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Post by plasmid on Mar 11, 2011 0:36:35 GMT
If it does, it's not going to happen any time soon. They just refurbished the trains and increased capacity 25% in 2006.
We also bring back the driver-less train issue...no space in the tunnels for walkways!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 9:46:22 GMT
If it does, it's not going to happen any time soon. They just refurbished the trains and increased capacity 25% in 2006. We also bring back the driver-less train issue...no space in the tunnels for walkways! Can the 482s operate in ATO or would they have to be modified? Don’t ask me, I just drive them though I try to avoid the Drain as much as possible. Whichever if they’d wanted (or been able to afford it) they would have done it back when they shut the place for five months in 2006. On the walkways issue, are these necessary or a legal requirement? If they are how much would it cost to convert the W&C and how long would it take? What did they do in Paris when they converted Line 1 to NoPO, did that have walkways there originally, did the re-dig the tunnels or did they just not bother? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 9:50:16 GMT
I think the W&C trains can't do ATO as the kit is not installed to save money. I believe that's the same reason there's no DVA (or is there one? Heard none last time I was on it).
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 11, 2011 9:56:27 GMT
Is there much need for a DVA on the drain?
"The next station is closed and this train will not stop there" message wouldn't be needed certainly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 10:36:08 GMT
Is there much need for a DVA on the drain? "The next station is closed and this train will not stop there" message wouldn't be needed certainly. Pretty sure they don't have it, I've only been down there twice, both times for training and all the PAs were done by me or the IOp. Would be a waste of money as you point out. "This is Bank, the next station is closed, this train terminates here". "This is a Waterloo and City Line train to nowhere". |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 11, 2011 15:30:44 GMT
Ah, but how else do we get to know that "There is a good service on all London Underground lines"?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 15:44:04 GMT
Ah, but how else do we get to know that "There is a good service on all London Underground lines"? When waiting for the train (Waterloo) or waiting for departure (Bank), obviously! |
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Post by plasmid on Mar 12, 2011 0:29:59 GMT
If it does, it's not going to happen any time soon. They just refurbished the trains and increased capacity 25% in 2006. We also bring back the driver-less train issue...no space in the tunnels for walkways! Can the 482s operate in ATO or would they have to be modified? Don’t ask me, I just drive them though I try to avoid the Drain as much as possible. Whichever if they’d wanted (or been able to afford it) they would have done it back when they shut the place for five months in 2006. On the walkways issue, are these necessary or a legal requirement? If they are how much would it cost to convert the W&C and how long would it take? What did they do in Paris when they converted Line 1 to NoPO, did that have walkways there originally, did the re-dig the tunnels or did they just not bother? Class 482's are strictly prohibited from use on the Central for the reason that they are no where near as advanced as the 92ts. They were built to be driven manually. It was only after looking at the prototypes that TFL turned around and decided to use those trains and build them with ATO in mind. Conversion I would say is near impossible, though it may be possible but you would need deep pockets. If the W&C Line was to ever go ATO they would get new trains in 2020 when the Central Line gets it's next "planned" upgrade... www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/tube_upgrade_plan_timeline.pdfWhat would be interesting to know is whether if the Central Line will remain as fixed block ATO and just get a new fleet or whether if they will modify it for moving block. I can feel a punters argument coming up about the signalling only been done in the 1990's regardless of the fact how much technology has changed in the last 20 years. Space in the tunnels is not the issue. The electric rails are the issue. Because of this a T/Op is necessary regardless and should be seated in a CAB not standing around like on the DLR...since they still obviously require a member of staff on board at all times. It makes more sense to have a T/Op. With a CAB passengers would think twice about leaving the train and await information from the T/Op. On the DLR there may be an operator but there is no CAB and if someone decides to leave they could do so... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 6:19:54 GMT
Ah, but how else do we get to know that "There is a good service on all London Underground lines"? Those pointless announcements are made on station PAs not on the trains. Class 482's are strictly prohibited from use on the Central for the reason that they are no where near as advanced as the 92ts. They were built to be driven manually. It was only after looking at the prototypes that TFL turned around and decided to use those trains and build them with ATO in mind. Conversion I would say is near impossible, though it may be possible but you would need deep pockets. If the W&C Line was to ever go ATO they would get new trains in 2020 when the Central Line gets it's next "planned" upgrade... www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/tube_upgrade_plan_timeline.pdfWhat would be interesting to know is whether if the Central Line will remain as fixed block ATO and just get a new fleet or whether if they will modify it for moving block. I can feel a punters argument coming up about the signalling only been done in the 1990's regardless of the fact how much technology has changed in the last 20 years. Space in the tunnels is not the issue. The electric rails are the issue. Because of this a T/Op is necessary regardless and should be seated in a CAB not standing around like on the DLR...since they still obviously require a member of staff on board at all times. It makes more sense to have a T/Op. With a CAB passengers would think twice about leaving the train and await information from the T/Op. On the DLR there may be an operator but there is no CAB and if someone decides to leave they could do so... So going back to the original question of could the W&C run ATO the answer is not without new stock. The subsequent question of whether it could be converted to NoPO is still there but it would require new trains, new signals, possibly highly expensive digging to allow a walkway or possibly a new traction current system that removed the middle rail. So not cheap, won’t happen, I’ll still have to find takers for my W&C line duties, dammit Janet! The 482s did actually undergo test runs on the Central Line in 1993 before being delivered to the W&C. LUL’s jolly little graphic hints that the next Central Line upgrade will start in 2020 but with no indication if or when that will include new trains. It suggests that the Bakerloo and Piccadilly upgrades will start in 2014 but last year the tender for a replacement for the 73s was cancelled with no date given for when it will be put out again. I retire in 15 years and I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m still be on the front of a 92 when I do. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 12, 2011 10:22:22 GMT
Class 482's are strictly prohibited from use on the Central for the reason that they are no where near as advanced as the 92ts. They were built to be driven manually. It was only after looking at the prototypes that TFL turned around and decided to use those trains and build them with ATO in mind. I don't know where your info has come from, but it isn't right. ATO was always planned for the Central line from the beginning of the project - I've seen the original contract documents. It was similarly planned by BR that the W&C would go auto, all the trackside kit was installed but shortly before commissioning in 1993 it was abandoned with the intention of going ATO in 1995. Once the line passed to LU the focus changed from ATO to instead rectifying the non-compliances with LU standards, and the last of the ATO kit was removed in early 2006. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 12, 2011 10:25:22 GMT
It's close, but not quite there. No. 4 road was there in LU days, and the signal before Waterloo Arrivals platform was always an auto. There weren't that many signals in the shed either! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 12:09:29 GMT
It's close, but not quite there. No. 4 road was there in LU days, and the signal before Waterloo Arrivals platform was always an auto. There weren't that many signals in the shed either! 4 road is not there any more, it's now the Train Crew step back room and the DMT's office. A new wash was installed and is now on 5 road |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 0:07:59 GMT
Length of line wouldn't make any difference to the principal. Considering the line had to wait 52 years for new trains last time, its doubtful anything will happen for some time. However perhaps it could become the first NOPO line at some point. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 0:21:55 GMT
When the W&C Line was taken over by LUL it was going to be ATO but with many problems on the central line and the W&C line with ATO it was scraped and even though it runs in manual signalling (with computor base siganalling) the ATO sections are still there, and with regards to NOPO it was being considered and tested just before labour won the general election in the 1997 but when labour won the election it was scraped.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 27, 2011 0:34:15 GMT
How long would it take end to end if the travolator were simply extended all the way to Waterloo? (Assume a way can be found to negotiate the bends)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 0:58:26 GMT
The line is approximately 1.5 miles long.
Assuming the travelators move about at walking speed (3mph), you're looking at 30mins end-to-end, though in practice, I imagine most people would walk along the travelator so average speed would be increased.
To get it down to the 4min end-to-end of the trains, you'd have to run them at 22.5mph, though in practice it could be a bit slower (as you'd never have to wait for a train).
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Post by Deep Level on Mar 27, 2011 0:58:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 5:17:25 GMT
When the W&C Line was taken over by LUL it was going to be ATO but with many problems on the central line and the W&C line with ATO it was scraped and even though it runs in manual signalling (with computor base siganalling) the ATO sections are still there, and with regards to NOPO it was being considered and tested just before labour won the general election in the 1997 but when labour won the election it was scraped. Now that’s something I’ve never heard even from the “25 year-ers”. Do you have any more details, links, etc? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 8:26:27 GMT
It was certainly an early aspiration to go ATO, but was very soon dropped.
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Post by phillw48 on Mar 27, 2011 9:54:11 GMT
There is one travelator somewhere that has two travelators running side by side, one at 3mph and one at 6mph. You have to get onto the slow one first and then step across to the faster one, unfortunately I cannot remember where it is.
If this system was to replace the W&C it could reduce the journey time to as little as 10 minutes (6 mph +3 mph with someone walking on the 'fast').
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 11:07:37 GMT
Was this the experimental one at Montparnasse Bienvenüe on the Paris Métro? If so, it is now history as a 'fast' travolator.
If this isn't what you refer to, I have no idea. Sorry.
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Post by phillw48 on Mar 27, 2011 11:46:45 GMT
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 27, 2011 14:04:14 GMT
It's close, but not quite there. No. 4 road was there in LU days, and the signal before Waterloo Arrivals platform was always an auto. There weren't that many signals in the shed either! 4 road is not there any more, it's now the Train Crew step back room and the DMT's office. A new wash was installed and is now on 5 road I know - I was one of the design team for the wash! |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 27, 2011 14:05:19 GMT
The line is approximately 1.5 miles long. Assuming the travelators move about at walking speed (3mph), you're looking at 30mins end-to-end, though in practice, I imagine most people would walk along the travelator so average speed would be increased. The time I walked the line on a Sunday afternoon, it took about 25 mins to Bank, and about 30 back. |
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 27, 2011 14:57:47 GMT
The line is approximately 1.5 miles long. Assuming the travelators move about at walking speed (3mph), you're looking at 30mins end-to-end, though in practice, I imagine most people would walk along the travelator so average speed would be increased. The time I walked the line on a Sunday afternoon, it took about 25 mins to Bank, and about 30 back. Slowcoach! We did it quicker than that including a quick recce of the pump room with me recording comms assets. This was a week or two before LUL took over and we were 'protected' by a NR contractor who was 'on a promise' so it was double march there and back and we managed just under 40 minutes for the round trip! |
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Post by Deep Level on Mar 27, 2011 18:36:50 GMT
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