h&c line

[kabsonline]

This might seem a silly question but what is the point of the Hammersmith and City Line? It is one of the least used lines on the network which does not have its own identity with all the stations it serves now being able to be reached by either the circle or district lines. It currently uses the C stock so why not get rid of it for the introduction of the S stock and focus on the circle and district lines?

[causton]

I think for three reasons:

a) Before the Circle line was extended it was the only line to run from Edgware Road - Hammersmith, and they didn't want to take away the H+C line when it was extended (as one of the benefits of the 'new' circle was more trains along that section)
b) It's always nice to get from Liverpool Street (excluding Central)/Kings Cross/Euston/Baker St/Paddington to the East without getting off at Tower Hill facing the wrong direction and changing to a District going in the right direction.
c) With less H+C trains there would be more Circle trains, and on the bottom half of the line there would be a million problems slotting these extra trains between the District trains.

Don't forget the 'Circle' is not a specific line, but a service that borrows the H+C and District tracks operationally IIRC (at least operationally)

[Deleted]

I see what you're saying. Hammersmith, round once, then on to Barking. With modern electronic destination indicators, they could display 'Circle' until the 2nd trip through Paddington then 'Barking'.

The only problem I see is that the longer the journey, the bigger impact any delays would have. London Bus routes are much shorter than they used to be.

[kabsonline]

Maybe they could have circle line trains running from barking via tower hill and then back to barking via Aldagate East as well as the current Hammersmith trains. I know the Circle shares lines with the District and Met Lines but I'm sure this could be worked in.

[Deleted]

Either the Circle or the Hammersmith & City could be absorbed by the other. The number of trains and everything about the service could remain intact.

The only difference would be that station signs and maps would have to be altered to reflect the single colour of the amalgamated lines, whatever that happened to be - I'd choose yellow myself. So, all in all, the same service but costing money to do the above changes. That's not good economics and no doubt it would confuse the hell out of the travelling public who as we are told at every opportunity, aren't clever enough to work out where to go to having read a map.

[kabsonline]

I just think though that making these changes would make so much more sense.

[metman]

I don't. The Hammersmith & City Line is a very useful line. It runs a very simple Hammersmith - Barking route. If you start over complicating things reliablity will reduce. The Barking-Barking idea will most likely run into problems due to the large number of flat junctions it has to pass.

[Deleted]

So are we suggesting removing the name or the service pattern? if it's the latter than I believe their is an underestimate of how many people wish to travel through to East London. You'd have to look at the Central & District and see if they could carry the extra passengers, especially in the peak.

There are operational benefits as well (IMHO) a problem at a location means you can still continue to operate a service, albeit at a reduced frequency.

If we're talking about the name, well you couldn't use CIRCLE as people still find it difficult to fully appreciate that the CIRCLE is no longer such a shape and will need to change at Edgware Road to make it a circle. If we're making suggestions, colour it purple and call it the Metropolitan Line.

Simples ;D

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2011 21:46:34 GMT kabsonline said:

It is one of the least used lines on the network

Is it? What do you base that statement on? Why would that even be important?

According to www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/modesoftransport/tube/linefacts/default.asp the H&C carries 150,000 people each weekday and the Circle 218,000. Doesn't seem like it's beckoning closure to me.

[Tom]

Mar 20, 2011 23:39:04 GMT @centralsimon said:

If we're making suggestions, colour it purple and call it the Metropolitan Line.

Simples ;D

How retro! ;D

[Alight]

Visually on a map, the only thing keeping the H&C alive is the small link between Liverpool Street and Aldgate East. Apart from that, I see it as a line that merely shares tracks with the District, Circle and Metropolitan lines.

Whereas at least the Circle line links Tower Hill and Aldgate AND High Street Kensington and Gloucester Road.

[Deleted]

Well you have to ask, why does the circle exist as a seperate entity these days? It's been over a year since it was 'extended', and as reluctant as I am to admit it it's doing much better as a result.

But back to my original point, why do we have a seperate circle line, when the moniker of Hammersmith and City would adequately describe what remains? The two lines are 'combined' internally to LU, with the same drivers and manager and so forth... Yes they're two seperate services but the Wimblewares are still District Line trains, in what way is their relationship to the 'main' district line different to the relationship between the H&C Mainline and the Circle remnant?

Ok so you'll have to spend a few £££ re repainting some of the stations to match the inevitable change of line colour. And I guess there's the re reducation of the punters that some H&C trains are really Circles. but perhaps a slight tweak of the name to Hammersmith and Circle would suffice there? Then it's just a quick redraw of the tube map (which seems to happen every few days at the moment) and bobs your uncle, one less line on the underground.

A Hammersmith - Barking via the Circle sounds intriguing, but it puts too many trains across Baker Street Jn. Of course, if you terminated all the Mets at Baker Street then you could be on to something.... Although I guess that just shifts the problems to Aldgate East / Praed Street.

It may not be the most sensible idea, but perhaps its relative benefits do need researching...

[Deleted]

Hammersmith & Circle has a certain ring to it, but what's the benefit? Seems to me that it would just be one less way for people to know which train they were on and where it was going, which given the general level of idiocy a lot of people seem to have when it comes to these things, is just going to lead to confusion.

I mean, on the picc there are always tales of Heathrow-bound tourists looking confused at Uxbridge, I once heard an Australian saying to a friend "don't get on the green line, you've no idea where you'll end up", and as for LO, well, that's a world of confusion to the uninitiated now. If you ask me it needs to start having numbered routes like the German S-Bahn networks.

[pgb]

Mar 21, 2011 0:19:34 GMT @paul said:

According to www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/modesoftransport/tube/linefacts/default.asp the H&C carries 150,000 people each weekday and the Circle 218,000. Doesn't seem like it's beckoning closure to me.

Any idea how they obtained those figures? Not questioning it, just intrigued!

[kabsonline]

It ranks 10th of the 11 lines in passenger numbers (Wikipedia)

Maybe not the most reliable source but normally accurate

[phillw48]

Mar 21, 2011 10:02:36 GMT kabsonline said:

It ranks 10th of the 11 lines in passenger numbers (Wikipedia)

Maybe not the most reliable source but normally accurate

Passenger numbers is not necessarily a good indicator of use. A better comparison would be passengers per mile or passengers per hour and this would depend on such factors as time of day/week or even year. A good example is the W&C, in passenger numbers alone it is probably the lowest but add in the other factors and it is probably one of the busiest.

[ducatisti]

I once heard an Australian saying to a friend "don't get on the green line, you've no idea where you'll end up

apart from being very sound advice ;D, that's more a comment on the difficulty of the district line to unitiated.

Surely lines are akin to bus routes, so the more descriptive and distinctive they are, the better. Even if the H&C is simply circle line trains and drivers with a different hat on, the fact that it differentiates the trains from others on the line is a good thing.

Numbering the lines wont help as the same muppets will get them confused with bus routes. (Some people get to foreign cities with the belief that they will get confused, so no ammount of helping them will help).

[Deleted]

Mar 21, 2011 11:58:14 GMT ducatisti said:

Numbering the lines wont help as the same muppets will get them confused with bus routes. (Some people get to foreign cities with the belief that they will get confused, so no ammount of helping them will help).

In Oslo the underground routes are numbered 1-6, tram routes 11, 12, 13, 17, 18 and 19. Bus routes start at 20. With this system there is space for more routes of both kinds, and there is no confusion between the systems. Obviously this could be a problem in London where most of the numbers already are in use

[Deleted]

Mar 21, 2011 11:58:14 GMT ducatisti said:

Numbering the lines wont help as the same muppets will get them confused with bus routes. (Some people get to foreign cities with the belief that they will get confused, so no ammount of helping them will help).

There aren't any bus routes starting with LO. Call the different Overground services LO1, LO2, LO3 etc. Easy.

[Alight]

Mar 21, 2011 10:21:18 GMT phillw48 said:

Passenger numbers is not necessarily a good indicator of use. A better comparison would be passengers per mile or passengers per hour and this would depend on such factors as time of day/week or even year. A good example is the W&C, in passenger numbers alone it is probably the lowest but add in the other factors and it is probably one of the busiest.

Exactly. This is why the Northern line isn't the busiest line as although it gets the most users per annum, we have to take into account that it is a very long and complex line. The Victoria line is the busiest line.

[causton]

Making some VERY quick rushed calculations I find out the following (I think journeys/mile is more fair than the total journeys)

Line

Miles

Journeys

million Journeys/mile

[/b]
[tr][td]Bakerloo[/td] [td]14.5 miles[/td][td]96 million[/td] [td]6.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Central[/td] [td]46 miles[/td][td]183.5 million[/td] [td]4.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Circle[/td] [td]17 miles[/td][td]68.5 million[/td] [td]4.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]District[/td] [td]40 miles[/td][td]173 million[/td] [td]4.3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Hamm+City[/td] [td]16 miles[/td][td]46 million[/td] [td]2.8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Jubilee[/td] [td]22.5 miles[/td][td]127.5 million[/td][td]5.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Metropolitan[/td] [td]41.5 miles[/td][td]53.5 million[/td][td]1.3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Northern[/td] [td]36 miles[/td][td]206.5 million[/td] [td]5.7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Piccadilly[/td] [td]44.3 miles[/td][td]176 million[/td] [td]4.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Victoria[/td] [td]13 miles[/td][td]183 million[/td] [td]14.1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Waterloo + C[/td] [td]1.5 miles[/td][td]9.5 million[/td] [td]6.3[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Never knew the Victoria was so busy! (and the W+C for that matter, seeing how quiet I usually think of it as)

[rincew1nd]

Nice to see the Met' propping up the table!

[norbitonflyer]

Mar 22, 2011 0:13:47 GMT causton said:

Making some VERY quick rushed calculations I find out the following (I think journeys/mile is more fair than the total journeys)

I'm not sure of the significance of the journeys/mile statistics - with the exception of the W&C, most journeys are not from one end of the line to the other. What would be interesting, but I don't know if the stats are available, is the passenger-miles for each line - the total mileage travelled by all the passengers. Even more useful would be the number of passengers per mile of track.

[Deleted]

There was a map on one of the notice boards a while ago showing passenger volume during the peaks and if memory serves the busiest stretch was between Liverpool Street and Holborn on the Central. I’ll see if I can find it when I’m at work today.

[causton]

Mar 22, 2011 8:12:48 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Mar 22, 2011 0:13:47 GMT causton said:

Making some VERY quick rushed calculations I find out the following (I think journeys/mile is more fair than the total journeys)

I'm not sure of the significance of the journeys/mile statistics - with the exception of the W&C, most journeys are not from one end of the line to the other.

Well yes, I used what little stats I had available
Of course all the lines have a varied usage pattern and some parts of the Met are far busier than figures suggest... but I can't find any more relevant details that are up to date and more useful than avg journies per mile

[kabsonline]

a line such as the met is going to be carrying people over a much longer distance than a line such as the circle.

[v52gc]

I know it's a while back but I have a document from 10 years ago which showed that during the peaks the busiest stretches were Stratford to Liverpool street and Sloane Square to St James's. I think it pre-dated the JLE mind you... I'll see if I can't fish it out and scan the map...

[ruislip]

Mar 22, 2011 8:18:24 GMT aslefshrugged said:

There was a map on one of the notice boards a while ago showing passenger volume during the peaks and if memory serves the busiest stretch was between Liverpool Street and Holborn on the Central. I’ll see if I can find it when I’m at work today.

Wasn't there also an era when the highest peak passenger volume was on the Bakerloo between Baker St and Oxford Circus--especially during the pre-Jubilee era?

[Deleted]

Hello,

AFAIK, a significant of the load of a line would be passenger * mile, the indicator being obtained with multiplying the number of passengers by the average distance they cover on the line (or by adding the distances covered by each passenger!).