Closure from Edgware Rd to High St

[Dstock7080]

Jul 26, 2011 10:47:35 GMT Hassaan said:

Pay particular attention to the version of the Tube map they use in the news report.

Version in use from June 2002 (Golden Jubilee)>March 2005.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2011 23:44:23 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Jul 25, 2011 18:00:00 GMT @innocentabroad said:

Question - are they running extra buses on route 27 during the closure?

Answer: 27 - Temporary Monday to Friday timetable introduced with additional peak hour journeys between Turnham Green/Stamford Brook and Baker Street during Railway works.

Many thanks.

[Deleted]

You'd think the BBC of all people would notice the absence of Wood Lane.

[Hassaan]

Jul 26, 2011 12:34:18 GMT @glom said:

You'd think the BBC of all people would notice the absence of Wood Lane.

It still has the old Circle line! Surely the BBC must know that the Circle line has been extended.
Also, Wood Lane is the closest station to their Shepherd's Bush studios.

[d7666]

I have to say, as an Edgware Road user about 2 times per week, I am impressed with signage and information.

They have both obliterated via Bayswater services from all permanent signage by very neat white adhesive vinyl (?) laid completely over the top of route diagrams etc, and route closure notices writ large at every conceivable useful location. As well, ''platform closed'' on the DMIs for 2 & 3.

Ok Ok I knew the Bayswater blockade was taking place, but even so anyone there would have to be a total troll to not work out something was happening. Of course, that don't stop passenger *arriving* there through lack of info elsewhere.

--
Nick

[younglulnerd]

Being a Chelsea supporter, I use the Wimbleware relativly frequently (OK, more my dad than me ) I think they should have done all this in June/July as the footy season starts around the 12th August. Not 100% why LU overlooked this. I think Chelsea are away 1st game, but that means Fulham will probably be at Home. Inconvinient for football fans.

[Deleted]

Jul 27, 2011 12:27:33 GMT @younglulnerd said:

Being a Chelsea supporter, I use the Wimbleware relativly frequently (OK, more my dad than me ) I think they should have done all this in June/July as the footy season starts around the 12th August. Not 100% why LU overlooked this. I think Chelsea are away 1st game, but that means Fulham will probably be at Home. Inconvinient for football fans.

Its better to do it in July/August as this is the time when the least amount of people use the Underground

[Hassaan]

Once the platforms have been lengthened, will D Stock be able to run to Edgware Road?

[Dstock7080]

Jul 27, 2011 16:09:26 GMT Hassaan said:

Once the platforms have been lengthened, will D Stock be able to run to Edgware Road?

All platforms will not be lengthened, Bayswater/Paddington etc. and D Stock is not equipped with SDO, only "this end" and "rear" door cut-outs.

[Ben]

Just front-most and rear-most? Pity, if it were front two and rear two it'd fit with the right stopping position.

[Dstock7080]

It is the front two and rear two - then how would the driver see the PLATFORM based OPO monitors? (retro-fit D Stock with in-cab CCTV?)

[Hassaan]

Jul 27, 2011 16:47:18 GMT Dstock7080 said:

It is the front two and rear two - then how would the driver see the PLATFORM based OPO monitors? (retro-fit D Stock with in-cab CCTV?)

Should have remembered that.


Lets say that a D Stock stops as far as possible. How many sets of doors would not be in the platform? All 4 doors on the last car?

[citysig]

Let us not go down this road. D-stock has always fitted in Edgware Road platforms - and indeed I have witnessed a couple of such occasions where this was proven.

The platforms have always been longer than 6 cars of C-stock. The signalling prior to 1996 allowed trains to use the entire length of the platforms but overlaps were marginal to say the least. After re-signalling in 1996 the platforms were tied down to 6-car lengths. From the next re-signalling some of the platform length will be regained in a controlled manner.

D-stock has never fitted at Notting Hill Gate, Bayswater or Paddington, and none of the works going on will make that happen either.

S7 stock will be able to use all the above stations, albeit with certain doors cut-out.

[d7666]

Jul 26, 2011 21:00:57 GMT d7666 said:

I have to say, as an Edgware Road user about 2 times per week, I am impressed with signage and information.

But rather less than impressed with travelling through.

I've done 6 trips through Edgware Road this week, 3 each way.

2 trips one EB and one WB stopped for 2 mins outside, 1 trip 1 minute, and 1 paused momentarily.

There is surely something wrong when they can't get trains to/from Hammersmith through that place with nothing else running.

--
Nick

[Colin]

There are some factors that will always come into play at such a location:

• It is a timetable regulating point - if trains are running early, the signaller will hold trains to time
  
• It is a crew relief point - if a driver isn't in position to time.....
  
• Uniquely at Edgware Road, every single train movement is manually signalled - the signaller may be on the telephone, radio or distracted by something else at a particular moment and thus a train may suffer a small delay as a consequence

[bowchurch]

Jul 26, 2011 12:34:18 GMT @glom said:

You'd think the BBC of all people would notice the absence of Wood Lane.

BBC London is based in the Egton wing of BH, not with rest of television news at TVC. Anyone needed to travel between the newsrooms would get the shuttle bus, or the Central Line.

The Central Line links together Bush House, Broadcasting House, and Television Centre. That's the whole spectrum of multiplatform local, national and international news from the beeb. I reckon Chancery Lane in the nearest station to ITN too.

So if you want to make the largest number of journalists grumpy, delays on the Central Line is the way to go

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2011 12:40:15 GMT bowchurch said:

Jul 26, 2011 12:34:18 GMT @glom said:

You'd think the BBC of all people would notice the absence of Wood Lane.

So if you want to make the largest number of journalists grumpy, delays on the Central Line is the way to go

Surely querying their expenses would be much more effective?

[d7666]

There are some factors that will always come into play at such a location:

• It is a timetable regulating point - if trains are running early, the signaller will hold trains to time
  
• It is a crew relief point - if a driver isn't in position to time.....
  
• Uniquely at Edgware Road, every single train movement is manually signalled - the signaller may be on the telephone, radio or distracted by something else at a particular moment and thus a train may suffer a small delay as a consequence

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the understanding trains are not supposed to be regulated by standing in tunnels, regulation should be done in platforms - I clearly wrote I was stopped outside. If there was another train in the platform being regulated then somebody somewhere has got something very badly wrong to reg the 1st train with a 2nd train in tunnel section. Now while I might believe a chain of events that might lead to that on one occasion, to be caught that way more than once is pushing it a bit far.


Uniquely manual ? Is not Hammersmith all manual ? And Rayners Lane ? Anyway, if the signaller is being so distracted that half of running trains are held in tunnel sections when only 50% normal total trains are running and when the only roads in use require no points moves then there is also something badly wrong.


So that leaves train operators then. 50% of them getting it wrong too ? Somehow I doubt that. I'm sure our T/Op members would support me there.

--
Nick

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:51 GMT d7666 said:

There are some factors that will always come into play at such a location:

• It is a timetable regulating point - if trains are running early, the signaller will hold trains to time
  
• It is a crew relief point - if a driver isn't in position to time.....
  
• Uniquely at Edgware Road, every single train movement is manually signalled - the signaller may be on the telephone, radio or distracted by something else at a particular moment and thus a train may suffer a small delay as a consequence

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the understanding trains are not supposed to be regulated by standing in tunnels, regulation should be done in platforms - I clearly wrote I was stopped outside. Nick

if only the 'regulation' or more so 'operation' of LU trains were so simple !

additional run times pop in and out all over the network at various times throughout the day (more often than not in the 2 peaks) to reflect the additional dwell time at certain stations

also additional run times are often added on terminus approaches in order for platforms to clear and in the sense of true terminus stations (ie Cockfosters) to prevent parallel moves

in some cases trains will not need those additional run times, ie during holiday periods when loadings are lighter, and will therefore be held outside a station awaiting booked arrival time

it is desireable to 'stand' a train in a platform, however many stations have auto signals so this is not possible, therefore they will depart slightly ahead of schedule and wait outside the next control signal for their booked path

[citysig]

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:51 GMT d7666 said:

There are some factors that will always come into play at such a location:

• It is a timetable regulating point - if trains are running early, the signaller will hold trains to time
  
• It is a crew relief point - if a driver isn't in position to time.....
  
• Uniquely at Edgware Road, every single train movement is manually signalled - the signaller may be on the telephone, radio or distracted by something else at a particular moment and thus a train may suffer a small delay as a consequence

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the understanding trains are not supposed to be regulated by standing in tunnels, regulation should be done in platforms - I clearly wrote I was stopped outside. If there was another train in the platform being regulated then somebody somewhere has got something very badly wrong to reg the 1st train with a 2nd train in tunnel section. Now while I might believe a chain of events that might lead to that on one occasion, to be caught that way more than once is pushing it a bit far.


Uniquely manual ? Is not Hammersmith all manual ? And Rayners Lane ? Anyway, if the signaller is being so distracted that half of running trains are held in tunnel sections when only 50% normal total trains are running and when the only roads in use require no points moves then there is also something badly wrong.


So that leaves train operators then. 50% of them getting it wrong too ? Somehow I doubt that. I'm sure our T/Op members would support me there.

--
Nick

Everything that shedcompnodosh says plus..

If you are able to furnish me with exact details of your journey, I may be able to find out what was going on - even if it is a simple "train ahead took slightly longer to leave as there was a customer who required assistance" answer. Yes, I'm afraid there are occasions where it is our customers who cause the delays.

I think Colin used the term "uniquely" is relation to the fact that this method of control is fairly non-standard across the tube, and indeed Edgware Road is one of the busier locations where one person is responsible for several movements in a short space of time.

I also believe Colin was not referring to the signalman being unable to do more than 1 thing at a time, but there are times when there are simply not enough arms attached to our signallers to take an important phone call, and move 2-3 levers to set a full route. This scenario would be fairly unlikely to delay a train for more than a few seconds, but it could, and as a passenger you will be only too aware that a few seconds can seem like a lifetime.

50% of our service is never delayed in this way, or by regulation, or by other minor delays. If it was, we wouldn't turn a wheel. The delays have been much less during the engineering works as the middle platforms at Edgware Road have been freed up and allow additional capacity - but only to a point.

Unfortunately you appear to have been on board the small handful of trains that have been delayed during this engineering work, and for that I apologise on behalf of those trying to make sure everything runs smoothly.

[Colin]

Others have assisted in answering your points, but I'd like to exercise my right to reply if I may....

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:51 GMT d7666 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am of the understanding trains are not supposed to be regulated by standing in tunnels, regulation should be done in platforms - I clearly wrote I was stopped outside. If there was another train in the platform being regulated then somebody somewhere has got something very badly wrong to reg the 1st train with a 2nd train in tunnel section. Now while I might believe a chain of events that might lead to that on one occasion, to be caught that way more than once is pushing it a bit far.

I did read and fully understood what you said the first time. However you have made an assumption that things actually work in the way you think they should rather than how they actually do.

It is not uncommon to have trains running early during engineering works as there are generally less of them. In the case of Edgware Road you don't have Terminating Circles & Districts getting in the way; nor do you have all the conflicts that would normally slow things down at Praed Street junction.

If some trains are running early, it is inevitable that at some point one train is going to catch up with another in front, and that the one in front may well still be occupying the platform ahead cos it is actually on time or being held to time. This isn't particularly unusual - it certainly happens quite often on the approaches to Earls Court.

Trains can easily run early as not all areas where signallers can control signals are actually used (they're simply left in auto through working), and of course there are areas where there are only automatic signals - faster drivers will naturally pass through these areas quicker than slower drivers.

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:51 GMT d7666 said:

Uniquely manual ? Is not Hammersmith all manual ? And Rayners Lane ?

You have a point with Hammersmith but I don't know Rayners Lane that well - does it not have any through working capability? It certainly has push buttons in the Uxbridge area so not all moves are fully by lever only.

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:51 GMT d7666 said:

Anyway, if the signaller is being so distracted that half of running trains are held in tunnel sections when only 50% normal total trains are running and when the only roads in use require no points moves then there is also something badly wrong.

Since when did I say all delayed train movements are down to the signaller being distracted? Let's not blow things out of proportion here!! I was merely suggesting a possible reason for your particular train being delayed may have been X, Y or Z.

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:51 GMT d7666 said:

So that leaves train operators then. 50% of them getting it wrong too ? Somehow I doubt that. I'm sure our T/Op members would support me there.

Again I never said that all train delays were down to crew reliefs. Your particular delay might have been caused by such an event, but then again it might not have been.

As others have hinted at, there are other more general reasons for a delay being caused to a train in the platform ahead - passengers holding doors open (or some other obstruction), passenger alarm operated, train defect being attended to by a train technician, train being reformed into another with an associated crew change (this will almost always incur a small extra delay as the driver, train number, radio & destination may well need changing), station staff searching for lost property, station staff (or police) removing a passenger, etc, etc, etc....

Even us drivers do actually want to get from A to B as well but unfortunately the odd delay here and there is often just the way it is.

[edwin]

Does anyone know how many doors of the S7s will be cut out at each station on this part of the Circle?

[d7666]

And what I am saying is that while all the excuses given above are possible, probability of me passing through Edgware Road 6 times and getting delays in tunnels on 3 of them is just too much for me to accept there is not something fundamentally wrong here.

1 of the trips I did replay trackernet when I got to my desk and I could see no reason for being held.



--
Nick

[Colin]

If I had a pound for every time I've been held outside a station only to see the whole lot go Green into the platform......well I'd certainly actually have a proper holiday this year!!

And I guarantee other drivers will agree with that statement!!

This is really one only a signaller can answer.

Edit: meant to say....Trackernet is about as reliable as a chocolate tea pot

[Deleted]

As a result of the works, it meant a couple of C Stock were operating between Earls Court and Kensington Olympia

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2011 13:23:23 GMT @mappman1000 said:

As a result of the works, it meant a couple of C Stock were operating between Earls Court and Kensington Olympia

Well last Saturday,one was on an 0845 D-022 Olympia-Upminster train.. it did return to Olympia and reformed as 151 or 152

[Deleted]

Here's a photo I took of a C stock at Olympia from last week. Train number 151: www.flickr.com/photos/15265256@N03/5966678497

[Deleted]

Yea, I heard about that aswell, the novelty of C stock to Upminster would have been nice

[uzairjubilee]

Yesterday on the way to Ealing Common I saw an EB C Stock train at 'Hammersmith', which JulianG kindly corrected on Twitter, which I then corrected to 'C Stock at District and Piccadilly Hammersmith'

[citysig]

Jul 31, 2011 12:01:03 GMT d7666 said:

1 of the trips I did replay trackernet when I got to my desk and I could see no reason for being held.



--
Nick

To be frank, if you have access to Trackernet then

1) As a member of staff you really should know better than to trust what it says - it is a very useful tool, but it won't always tell you what is going on.

and

2) As a member of staff you really should know better than to voice that there is something "fundamentally wrong" with the way in which trains are timetabled and routed through the area. I'm not sure what area you are in, but it seems likely (given the reference to a desk) you may be in an office which is far removed from what those of us outside are doing.

This is not meant as a personal dig, but merely a suggestion that perhaps if you are close enough to the job that you can see Trackernet, maybe ask for a visit to a control room and see what is actually happening. You are more than welcome to arrange such a visit to our room.