Number of cars - present and future

[Chris M]

It has been mentioned in various posts on this board that there is not enough rolling stock to run three-car trains on all current services, let alone when the Stratford International branch opens.

Why was more rolling stock not ordered to run the new services? Wasn't the "Olympic batch" of units meant to provide this capacity?

If/when extensions to Dagenham Dock and/or west from Bank are built, they will obviously require more stock, so hopefully the opportunity will also be taken to get enough trains for the current service as well as the future ones - is this actually likely?
More rolling stock obviously takes more space to store. There is not enough space at Poplar to store enough units to run a complete service on the open sections of railway when the Beckton branch is shut, so obviously any new trains will need to be at Beckton.
From what I've seen, even in the middle of the night Beckton isn't full - but is there space for all the new units required?
There is land on three sides onto which the depot could conceivably expand, but the Dagenham Dock extension will make extensions to the south and east more difficult, and I've heard speculation that Gallions Reach shopping centre has interests in some of the land to the North. None of the plans/proposals I've seen mention an expansion or new depot, but Beckton isn't infinite?

[astock5000]

Looking on Google Maps (which has now been updated to show the new sidings at Beckton depot), if all sidings are full but no trains are stabled on points or tracks which don't seem to be used for stabling, there seems to be room for about 45 units at Poplar and 130 at Beckton, which would be space for 58 3-car trains (and a spare unit), which should be enough for 3-car trains on all services, however a lot of shunting would be needed as most sidings are the length of one or more 2-car trains.

[Deleted]

Are train(s) ever stabled at Bank, since it's underground and secure? Not been to Woolwich Arsenal yet but is that also able to be secured?

[Chris M]

I believe that Woolwich Arsenal can be secured when the mainline station is closed. When the mainline station is open, it would be more difficult but I wouldn't like to say whether it was possible or not. I don't know whether trains have been stabled there or not, but the timetables (at least before the SI opening, and as no more rolling stock is arriving I don't think this will change) suggest it's not done as a matter of routine.
A recent thread here commented on trains being stabled in the platforms at London City Airport. This was during engineering work that blocked access to Beckton Depot (and SI testing?) though and again I don't think this is a normal occurrence.
I don't know about stabling at Bank, but again basing things on the times of the last public trains. this is not something that is done everyday.

The key thing to remember is that stabling away from a depot makes things more complicated than in-depot stabling.
Trains need cleaning and preparing for service, which is normally most easily done at a depot. If you are doing this elsewhere you need to arrange for staff and equipment to be or get to the stabling location. The same is true of train crew - the last night crew need to get home and the first morning crew need to get there from wherever they book on; both without the service/line they drive/operater/etc.
Also, and more significantly, trains need to be checked every so many hours (24 if it's like the Underground, but I don't actually know this), and at least some of these checks can only be done in a depot. This means that the timetable needs to ensure that the trains that are outstabled one night return to a depot during the day. This can be done - it is on the Victoria for example - but it makes the timetable more complicated and reduces flexibility available to the controllers if the service is disrupted for any reason.
This is not to say it should not be done, as countless examples show it si done and does work. It's just more complicated than simply having the space available to stable trains in.

[Deep Level]

I've been searching Google Maps to try and find a suitable location for some sidings somewhere else on the line to help solve this problem but there is actually no-where .

[Deleted]

Yup, that's why I asked about Bank and Woolwich, but even they only provide a couple of spaces and as Chris says it causes logistical problems.

How about some new sidings on the Dagenham Dock extension, if and when it comes to fruition, since much of that area (at least, says Google Maps) is brownfield?

Depot space would seem to be the achilles heel of the DLR, and will surely prevent its expansion much further beyond the current network unless more space can be found.

[Deep Level]

Aug 31, 2011 3:10:03 GMT @biolizard said:

Yup, that's why I asked about Bank and Woolwich, but even they only provide a couple of spaces and as Chris says it causes logistical problems.

How about some new sidings on the Dagenham Dock extension, if and when it comes to fruition, since much of that area (at least, says Google Maps) is brownfield?

Depot space would seem to be the achilles heel of the DLR, and will surely prevent its expansion much further beyond the current network unless more space can be found.

That doesn't solve the problem.

The problem is, when there is engineering work on the Beckton Branch trains cannot leave the depot so trains need to be stabled in other locations and Poplar. If there was a depot on the Dagenham Dock Extension then they still can't get passed the engineering work on the Beckton Branch.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2011 3:44:17 GMT Deep Level said:

That doesn't solve the problem.

The problem is, when there is engineering work on the Beckton Branch trains cannot leave the depot so trains need to be stabled in other locations and Poplar. If there was a depot on the Dagenham Dock Extension then they still can't get passed the engineering work on the Beckton Branch.

D'oh, please excuse my brain

[norbitonflyer]

There is a huge area to the west of the Stratford/Stratford Int'l line will becone redundant in just over a yaer's time!

[Chris M]

except that's all going to be residential and other already planned for legacy uses.

Looking at the air photos, there might be some space south of the line between West Silvertown and Canning Town. This area is going to be regenerated at some point (there is provision for a station somewhere along that stretch) but I don't know what or how advanced the plans are.

The ideal location though would be west of Poplar but I have no idea where you could build anything there without spending megabucks.

[Ben]

If its only sidings that are required and not depot space, could an existing group of sidings be double decked? Sort of like Caning Town Station, or White City sidings and Wood Lane depot existing together?

[Chris M]

A combination of memory and a quick look at the Google maps air photo suggests that double-decker sidings over the eastern end of the Poplar depot site could be doable. Access to and from the eastbound line towards Canning Town (from just east of the crossover with the All Saints line east of the station) shouldn't be difficult to provide, nor should a link to the north end of the eastern-most north-south siding, linking to the All Saints line.
It wouldn't be cheap I expect, and I've no idea how easy planning permission would be.