Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2011 22:04:06 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2011 22:08:07 GMT
Of course, this puts the Govt in a Catch-22. If they give it to Bombardier, the unions (and to an extent, voters) will be placated, but the unsuccessful bidders will accuse the Govt of bias and Brussels won't be happy. If they don't, then the unions will be up in arms saying the Govt is killing off the British manufacturing it claims to be supporting.
Glad I'm not PM!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2011 22:28:34 GMT
I hate how teh governemnt are also stalling over the new class 350's for the London Midland and the Manchester - Scotland services which are due to start from 2013
Aslo maybe teh governement should order some class 378's from Bombardier for Merseyrail/Northern instead of displacing the class 319's up there, those could then be used by FGW including on the Cardiff - Bristol local service.
|
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Aug 30, 2011 0:01:48 GMT
I hate how teh governemnt are also stalling over the new class 350's for the London Midland and the Manchester - Scotland services which are due to start from 2013 So long as the order is placed before the end of September, there shouldn't really be a problem in getting the units before the December 2013 timetable change. After all, the size of the order depends on exactly which bits of line will be electrified (a few of the units depend on the electrification to Bromsgrove being approved). Ordering of units for Merseyrail isn't upto the national government, Merseyside PTE now controls that sort of contract (like TfL ordered the class 378s for LO). No class 319s were ever going to goto Merseyrail. It is also worth remembering that Scotrail will be needing units, on a similar time scale to Northern's class 319s, for their various electrification schemes. |
|
|
|
Post by tecchy on Aug 30, 2011 2:55:27 GMT
Of course, this puts the Govt in a Catch-22. If they give it to Bombardier, the unions (and to an extent, voters) will be placated, but the unsuccessful bidders will accuse the Govt of bias and Brussels won't be happy. If they don't, then the unions will be up in arms saying the Govt is killing off the British manufacturing it claims to be supporting. Glad I'm not PM! I think you will find whatever choice anyone makes in life people will moan, its just cost weighing the benefits! I hope the new contract for Crossrail does go to Siemens - They deserve it. Very reliable trains they have built (from my experience). These claims of 1200 job losses. Bombardier were to get rid of 1200 staff because the end of contacts like the 09 Stock. Its was only 200 staff that were directly impacted by the loss of the contract on Thameslink. Apparently the unions want the bogie's to be manufactured by Bombardier instead of Siemens. Regardless of the manufacturer, both bogie's will still be made in Germany... I don't think that the punters are going to care. At the end of the day what would you rather have. A good train designed by Siemens that is well maintained and manufactured and keeps a good failure record. Or a train that 'was built in the UK' regardless of the cost and reliability. Manufacturing in this country has gone as a result we should move on, like other countries have. When an industry isn't making you money, leave it. Most industries have been somehow destroyed by the Unions in some form anyway. Its only ones that HAVE to stay have survived - The Tube for example. They will still need people to employ from the UK whatever company they choose anyway. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 7:10:46 GMT
Of course, this puts the Govt in a Catch-22. If they give it to Bombardier, the unions (and to an extent, voters) will be placated, but the unsuccessful bidders will accuse the Govt of bias and Brussels won't be happy. If they don't, then the unions will be up in arms saying the Govt is killing off the British manufacturing it claims to be supporting. Glad I'm not PM! I think you will find whatever choice anyone makes in life people will moan, its just cost weighing the benefits! I hope the new contract for Crossrail does go to Siemens - They deserve it. Very reliable trains they have built (from my experience). These claims of 1200 job losses. Bombardier were to get rid of 1200 staff because the end of contacts like the 09 Stock. Its was only 200 staff that were directly impacted by the loss of the contract on Thameslink. Apparently the unions want the bogie's to be manufactured by Bombardier instead of Siemens. Regardless of the manufacturer, both bogie's will still be made in Germany... I don't think that the punters are going to care. At the end of the day what would you rather have. A good train designed by Siemens that is well maintained and manufactured and keeps a good failure record. Or a train that 'was built in the UK' regardless of the cost and reliability. Manufacturing in this country has gone as a result we should move on, like other countries have. When an industry isn't making you money, leave it. Most industries have been somehow destroyed by the Unions in some form anyway. Its only ones that HAVE to stay have survived - The Tube for example. They will still need people to employ from the UK whatever company they choose anyway. Your post highlights why we have little manufacturing industry left in the UK. Getting made abroad maybe cheaper lay people off and pay them benefits so the tax pay effectively subsidises the foreign company's bid. The company that may have been exporting project shuts down so income from abroad is lost. Tax revenues from the company and employees are lost - sub contractors go out of business, people spend less money in the shops..... Next bid no UK competition now the foreign companies prices have increased substantially. Your somewhat IMO myopic view highlights why this country is in such a mess compared to Germany. I am a qualified electronics engineer which I became following an apprenticeship with GEC many years ago. The prejudice against engineers by the pen pushers all those years ago was frightened comments like grease monkey, must be thick , does not where a suit etc. When this (expletive omitted) people cars would not start or their radio did not work who did the head straight for? I am not a socialist but I do not believe in propping up ailing industries however there are numerous examples of viable industries that have been destroyed by political dogma both from the left and right of politics. PS. I became a pen pusher about 16 years ago as nearly all the engineering jobs had by then gone in the UK and now I am currently redundant. Maybe I should become a banker or politician where failure as actively encouraged and handsomely rewarded! Xerces Fobe |
|
|
|
Post by ianvisits on Aug 30, 2011 7:41:35 GMT
I presume you are aware that the UK is still the world's 6th largest manufacturing economy so all this talk about the collapse of the UK engineering industry is overblown.
However, to expect the UK with its high wages to be able to start manufacturing fairly routine products again is nonsensical.
The UK simply cannot compete on price when dealing with mundane manufacturing - unless the workers are planning to take wage cuts?
The UK can compete on very highly specialised skills though - but is bolting together a train carriage really that demanding and requiring staff with degrees to carry it out?
|
|
|
|
Post by tecchy on Aug 30, 2011 15:08:02 GMT
I presume you are aware that the UK is still the world's 6th largest manufacturing economy so all this talk about the collapse of the UK engineering industry is overblown. However, to expect the UK with its high wages to be able to start manufacturing fairly routine products again is nonsensical. The UK simply cannot compete on price when dealing with mundane manufacturing - unless the workers are planning to take wage cuts? The UK can compete on very highly specialised skills though - but is bolting together a train carriage really that demanding and requiring staff with degrees to carry it out? Maybe I wasn't specific enough. I was thinking in terms of electronic goods (Which is ironically what most people base this argument on) Yes we do still have manufacturing in this country, for example, things like cosmetics, DVDs, High end cars (and ford engines!) (Mini, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Land Rover, Bentleys - All foreign companies but built in the UK), journalism, music, pharmaceuticals, brewery's, shipbuilding, cigarettes. All variety of things are made that you wouldn't even think about. However the 6th in the world manufacturing situation will not get better, this will be overcome by the other industries stated above. If China and other countries had any sense they would take this away from us because they import some goods from us! However, China only tend to make value stuff rather than high end goods, so I think we are safe in that respect for a bit. My original point still remains and that only around 12% of national output is manufacturing, which is very low. 73% is services like insurance, etc........  xercesfobe, indeed I do feel sad for your situation about redundancy, however (in the nicest possible way) I think you will understand that maybe your wage was too high and the company could not afford to pay you, and others in comparison the orders they were getting? I don't know about your situation but maybe that is a contributing factor at least? Closer to the point of Siemens, if your the government what would you do? Buy a train that is more cost effective and would get you moaning and groaning unions for a couple of months. Or possibly face criticism from a rather minor decision of "train purchasing" to a major one where it was the governments choice that they brought trains which break down more often! A classic example is the 09 Stock! (we all get some teething issues as we know with new trains) On a more humorous note, how many times has a Desiro left with its doors open?!? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by mcmaddog on Aug 30, 2011 17:55:38 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by mikebuzz on Aug 30, 2011 18:28:27 GMT
Germany is making money, lots of it. That's because manufacturing is profitable and can be exported to help the balance of trade deficit. That's why Germany is doing well and can afford those schools, police officers, and high wages. Unfortunately most people in this country fail to see the connection between manufacturing, wealth, balance of payments and the public purse. Germans do. Perhaps they really are cleverer than us...
Seems odd though when you consider wages and material costs are lower in the UK. That's why so much Eurozone industry is relocating to the UK. Oh hang on a minute it's not. But surely like us they obey European rulings and believe in free trade?
Maybe what we have left with Bombardier isn't good enough due to lack of the kind of protection and independence that Seimens and Alsthom enjoy but that's no excuse to stick the knife in. The least we can do is try to protect what little there is of industry in this country (even if it doesn't protect many jobs). That way we won't be relying on rapidly diminishing North Sea oil and the bankers for our wealth.
Yes we still make things but not enough compared to France and Spain and if we only hope that high-tech science park jobs will appear we will be disappointed. Like bolting trains together you need big domestic corporations to create those jobs and we don't have many.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 19:16:15 GMT
xercesfobe, indeed I do feel sad for your situation about redundancy, however (in the nicest possible way) I think you will understand that maybe your wage was too high and the company could not afford to pay you, and others in comparison the orders they were getting? I don't know about your situation but maybe that is a contributing factor at least? My situation is not all bad the major factor for me and others like me was the Government's Strategic Defence Review. Where I was working it was difficult to make progress because the bureaucracy had got out of control and there were processes to check processes, lots of mind boggling pointless questions and probably the worst overall leadership I have ever experienced. I am getting my sense of normality back now I am away from it all. If( and that is the big question)? railway manufacturing in the UK is run this ways I have experienced no wonder Siemens won the contract for Thameslink. IMO Inept leadership is the country's downfall and currently It appears to be endemic in the UK. Xerces Fobe |
|
castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
Posts: 1,316
|
Post by castlebar on Aug 30, 2011 19:40:03 GMT
In a way, this is completely "off message" but in another way, it isn't
Like Xerces, I also became redundant a year ago, at 62, and the pension fund went with the company due to a fraud. My retirement has gone the same way as the Great Central - it has completely disappeared. And the reason for this posting is that I can relate to everything Xerces has said. Over regulation in this country has completely killed any chances of growth, just as if somebody poured a litre of Paraquat on the "green shoots of recovery". This country has been killed by Quangomeisters, their apparatchiks and professional pen pushers/paper shufflers. My friends in industry are all struggling because this country seems to interpret E.C. legislation in a different way to France & Germany etc. So our train makers cannot compete on a level playing field. There is a strange mentality amongst those who have "office" to stifle anything that smacks of promoting British goods. Truly. many of these people cannot differentiate between "importance" and "self-importance"
I have little hope for our train makers. Yet the fraudsters walk away because our prisons are already too full, and the police are too busy, shuffling paper in an office, to go for a conviction.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 20:44:45 GMT
Moderator Action
This thread has gone way off topic now, and is nearer a politcal rant than anything else.
Sorry folks, but it's padlock time! 
|
|
