C-stock Questions

[Deleted]

Watching the V125 Metropolitan and District DEV (I was looking to see what a tripcock tester looks like - but you can't see it at Euston Sq.), the C-stock driver is constantly flicking a smallish black switch below the reverser barrel. On looking at the pictures of C-stock cab equipment on Dave's main site, the switch has been blanked off. What was this switch for and why was it blanked off at refurb?

My other question is: as the train arrives at Westbourne Park, there is a loud blow of air - is this a T/Op using the Westinghouse, as I noticed that the compressors are also running as the train departs?

Thanks for your help,

David

[Deleted]

It's the 'oh f*ck' switch. It cuts out the forward wire in the CTBC control mechanism so that a T/Op can be assured that releasing the deadman in Rheo1&Hold doesn't result in an emergency brake application.

It got its name because many T/Ops forget to reset it before attempting to wind up, leading to the expected vocalization.

now waits for solidbond to post the correct info

[Deleted]

theonekea said:

It's the 'oh f*ck' switch. It cuts out the forward wire in the CTBC control mechanism so that a T/Op can be assured that releasing the deadman in Rheo1&Hold doesn't result in an emergency brake application.

It got its name because many T/Ops forget to reset it before attempting to wind up, leading to the expected vocalization.

now waits for solidbond to post the correct info

I was just going to PM solidbond the question, but thought it may be interesting to share it with others.

[Colin]

You are more or less correct TOK - it prevented the deadman from operating in rheo1 & hold, but wasn't needed after refurb as the way in which the circuits now operate mean that the deadman is now 'out of circuit' below *I think* 7mph in rheo1 & hold. This why you can often see C stock drivers releasing the CTBC before the train has come to a complete stand. I'll have to dig out my C stock for a more detailed reply........unless of course Solidbond replies first.

As for "a loud blow of air" - if it was only once and was very loud, it's unlikely to be the Westinghouse..............more likely the driver let go of the CTBC, making use of the deadman to assist the train in stopping quicker after misjudging his/her braking. It's a practice that is certainly not encouraged, but is used nonetheless.

[Deleted]

OK, can you tell (as a passenger) if the T/Op is using the Westinghouse?

[Deleted]

david5032 said:

OK, can you tell (as a passenger) if the T/Op is using the Westinghouse?

If you don't hear the traction motors making that "winding down" sound as you approach a station, then there's a pretty good chance that Westinghouse is in use - I don't think the rheo brake is used when the CTBC is in one of the Westinghouse positions.

[Colin]

There is a few ways you can tell, but you need to have your senses switched on to really notice.

First all, the braking should start a little later than normal as Westinghouse is a far superior brake. As TOK says, you won't hear the usual rheo noise from the motors - Westinghouse is a pure air only brake...........and you won't get that 'orrible jolting effect as the retarders cut in & out. Have a look at the air gauge located at one end of the car - if it rises gradually as opposed to going up & down, that's a fair sign you are stopping with Westinghouse. Finally the most obvious sign (admittedly after you've stopped)..........have a sniff!! There's nothing quite like that Westinghouse smell ;D ;D

You will often find that drivers use it a lot more when it's raining - it actually helps prevent flats!

[Deleted]

Presumably it takes quite a bit of practice to stop on the mark with the Westinghouse?

[Colin]

I can't speak for other stocks, but yes, certainly with C stock it's practice practice practice!! Sometimes it'll stop on the mark, but more often than not it's a case of reverting to the EP brake for those last few metres/feet ;D ;D ;D

We do have a few that can do it station after station........but I'm not one of 'em

[CSLR]

david5032 said:

Presumably it takes quite a bit of practice to stop on the mark with the Westinghouse?

colin said:

I can't speak for other stocks, but yes, certainly with C stock it's practice practice practice!!

My experiences with pre-38 Standard stock and 1938 stock confirm what Colin has said, it really is a case of practice. I would however liken it to driving a car, once you can drive one car you can drive any car - but each one handles differently. And just like a car, if you know what you are doing, you will adapt to each individual Westinghouse brake in a few minutes without even thinking.
I practiced early morning and late at night on 1938 stock to improve my skills and, as soon as I was confident that I could stop on a sixpence, I would drive for weeks at a time using nothing else (except for a test of the EP brake at one station each journey). Even during the rush hour, tail-to-tail with a red semi in the tunnel, I still used Westinghouse. Perhaps I should add that things were different then and nobody bothered me.
Old motormen always used to say that you drive and stop on EP using your eyes. They also said that to use the Westinghouse properly, you must learn to 'feel it' with a special set of senses that are in your backside and on the soles of your feet.
You should also be able to throw the Westinghouse off during the last few seconds to allow the train to draw to a halt without a jolt exactly where you want to stop - every time. When you can do all those things, you are fully qualified to use a Westinghouse brake.

[Ben]

It used to be the case that Westinghouse applications were made at the station before the terminus.

[tubeprune]

Doing Circles (4 and 4 especially) I would often do some of them with W/hse only. The trick is (as Colin says) to be able to do it without relying on the e.p. This can be done with practice but Bayswater is very difficult, being so short. A Stock is more difficult as the train speeds are higher at many stations, platforms are often tight and the triple valves are (were?) the old piston valve type. Occasionally, you would get a "kicker", where one car would go into emergency.

I also used to use it for wet weather when we had 59/38TS on the Picc. It did help to prevent flats there too.

As for the "O/F" switch, this was not fitted when the trains were 2PO. You could leave the CTBC in Rheo 1 & Hold at any speed and the train would brake on a low deceleration rate.

[Colin]

benedict said:

It used to be the case that Westinghouse applications were made at the station before the terminus.

You need delete the "used to" bit - that instruction still stands, and it's done so that the Westinghouse brake has a test on each journey as it is the fail-safe brake on the train.

[prjb]

theonekea said:

It's the 'oh f*ck' switch.

Nearly, it was the 'f*ck it' switch! ;D

[Deleted]

I have been pulled up by DMTs (TD1 etc) for using the Westinghouse randomly around the line, for signals and stations. My argument is that if you aren't confident/able enough to use it anywhere then quite simply you shouldnt be on the front of a train. I know Bayswater, Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove etc are all tight platforms, but if you've got your EP/AWIC cut out you're gonna have to stop on Westinghouse if the starter is on. (obviously you would be empty) but the fact remains you will HAVE to stop. Why then are we not encouraged to use the Westinghouse liberally? My personal favourite (aside from HSK inner rail) is SJP in the peak. A lovely Westinghouse smell, especially for our suit-wearing colleagues up the stairs! ;D

[prjb]

Oi, I am one of those suit wearers upstairs!
I have no idea why any DMT would object to you using the Westinghouse, that is simply ridiculous. Obviously the Westinghouse brake shouldn't be used constantly, but what objection could there possibly be to you using it at every other station or every third station?
As a driver I regularly used the Westinghouse, just to pass the time away and going back a few years most drivers considered it a matter of professional pride to stop the train with as few applications as possible. As a DMT I would never have discouraged any driver from using the Westinghouse more regularly than the reference manual dictates, for the very reasons you have quite rightly highlighted.

[Phil]

prjb said:

but what objection could there possibly be to you using it at every other station or every third station?

If one looks at it from a professional 'bean counter' POV, is it because it wears out the linings quicker (no rheo to help) and therefore increases maintenance schedules/costs? Just plasying devil's advocate you understand ;D

[solidbond]

Indeed that is one of the considerations, as well as the brake dust generated I did once have a 'chat' with a DMT about using the Westinghouse with trainees. He told me that I should only do them at the last station before the terminus. I then asked how long he would like me to spend road training new drivers, if they could only try to use the brake once every hour ;D Needless to say, he changed his mind after that ;D

[trainopd78]

I was told to stop showing off by one of our competence assurance DMT's once whilst on a TD1 ;D

I would have told that DMT to get lost for not allowing us to practice using hte Westinghouse, our emergency brake. I've never had that but that DMT obviously needed "development" in train operations.

[prjb]

rbruce1314 said:

prjb said:

but what objection could there possibly be to you using it at every other station or every third station?

If one looks at it from a professional 'bean counter' POV, is it because it wears out the linings quicker (no rheo to help) and therefore increases maintenance schedules/costs? Just plasying devil's advocate you understand ;D

Thats actually a fair point, but I suspect the DMT wasn't thinking of this when he made the statement!