Why do the Beckton trains keep getting changed?

[Deleted]

A question for the technical team here.

Every weekend the Beckton trains seem to have different arrangements, although the lines involved are not closed for works. Today they all go to Poplar, none to Stratford, you have to change at Canning Town as all the Stratford trains come from Woolwich. I saw there were people with airline luggage probably going to the airport waiting on the wrong platform as our train went through.

A couple of weeks ago the opposite was happening, from Beckton all the trains went to Stratford, and to get to Poplar it was three escalators to the other line. And the time before that they were going alternating to both the places.

There is no notice either at Canning Town if you come in on the Jubilee line where to go, we are normally in the back carriage and go up the steps to the Docklands platform, and it is only if we work out that there are no Beckton trains shown we walk along, down the two escalators, and up the third one. It's all right for me because you see when going from home what is being done that day, but giving directions to our visitors coming here I have now managed to get it wrong for them three times in succession!

[Chris M]

I've wondered this too.
It was even worse this weekend as (whenever I travelled) only 1/3rd of trains from Gallions Reach made it to Poplar, the rest turning short at Blackwall. I guess the pattern this was due to the large event at the Excel and making the interchange at Canning Town as easy as possible (the route from central London was closed).
It really would be more useful though for trains to alternate between branches.

I don't know what the works were this weekend, but Blackwall really isn't a useful place to dump people wanting onward travel. Beckton to Greenwich this weekend would have involved changing at Blackwall (on many services), Poplar and Canary Wharf before getting a replacement bus.

[radbod]

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved with this one, but here goes.

The work this weekend was to start the changeover of control centres from Poplar to Beckton. Because this is being done in stages, and due to the boundaries of the individual servers that run different sections of the railway, there are limits on the number of trains that can run, and the platforms that can be used.

There will be more work running up to the end of the year, including some full system closures. When it's all done, the control software will be running on newer servers, which should mean more reliable services. Eventually there will be more control staff managing the system, which means better reaction times to problems and fewer delays to start of service. Not that most of you see 0430 of course.

[Chris M]

While I don't see the start of service, I do see the end not infrequently. If more control staff with more abilty to control (technichally, I'm not imlying a lack of staff competence) means less delays due to tipping out at Gallions Reach (the other day there was one tipping out in each platform, two waiting to enter the station on the eastbound and the Beckton-bound train I was on waiting to get into the westbound having run wrong-road from Prince Regent) then that'll be good.

I understand that part closures are needed, but consistency of services between weekends with the same sections closed would be nice, e.g. if trains from the east can't travel beyond Poplar then choose whether it's Beckton-Poplar and Woolwich-Stratford International or vice versa and stick to it (if alternating isn't realistically feasible). Some indication on the Jubilee Line platforms and in the ticket hall¹ at Canning Town of which platform trains to Beckton and Woolwich are running would be nice too.

[1] To be fair I can't remember if there is any indication here currently or not.

[Deleted]

I do agree that the service appears to be extremely random.
When I was in London this weekend, I noticed that there was a 6tph Stratford Int-Woolwich Arsenal service and I think 15tph Blackwall-Beckton service (with 5tph terminating at Poplar). Why is this? Why was Beckton given so much more than Woolwich Arsenal and why could only 5tph turn around at Poplar? It has four platforms you know!

[Chris M]

Indeed if all platforms at Poplar were available (Radbod's comment above suggests they might not have been) then it should theoretically have a higher reversing capacity with reversals off two platforms (and two through platforms for the Stratford - Bow Church - Canary Wharf service) compared to a trailing crossover a couple of train lengths west of Blackwall.

Although having said that the Beckton-line platforms at Poplar are normally the outer two and I can't remember the layout of junctions but it might be that reversals have to thread through the north-south service. Can someone point me in the direction of a track map for the area?

[radbod]

Nov 1, 2011 19:50:34 GMT Chris M said:

Indeed if all platforms at Poplar were available (Radbod's comment above suggests they might not have been) then it should theoretically have a higher reversing capacity with reversals off two platforms (and two through platforms for the Stratford - Bow Church - Canary Wharf service) compared to a trailing crossover a couple of train lengths west of Blackwall.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

Although having said that the Beckton-line platforms at Poplar are normally the outer two and I can't remember the layout of junctions but it might be that reversals have to thread through the north-south service. Can someone point me in the direction of a track map for the area?

Only platform 4 was available. To cross to platform 3, you have to switch onto a different Vehicle Control Centre. As it was out of use, it simply isn't possible.

Custom House was extremely busy due to numerous events at ExCeL. Remember that the Woolwich Arsenal service quietens down a lot once London City Airport closes on Saturday. The Beckton service is more consistently busy and therefore warrants more trains. Woolwich Arsenal passengers have the option of South Eastern trains direct to town, Beckton passengers do no.

[Deleted]

Well despite these works being done which cause all this disorgansation, there is no information anywhere I have seen - notices, website - that they are taking place and stopping things, last weekend the message was just no trains beyond Poplar, nothing about no trains from Beckton to Stratford, which all just got cancelled for the weekend, nothing about only a limited number of the others actually going through to Poplar - which I didn't notice, must have been fortunate. But you just find out when you get to the stations.

Wonder what next weekend will bring.

[Chris M]

DLR services will be suspended on Saturday 5 (all day) & Sunday 6 November (until 13:00) between Westferry - Woolwich Arsenal/Beckton and Canning Town - Stratford International in both directions.

www.dlrlondon.co.uk/UpcomingWorksDetails.aspx?id=9073

I only found that site last night when trying to plan my journey to South Kensington on Saturday morning - the TfL planned engineering pages just don't work on my ancient mobile phone.

[angelislington]

Thanks for that link, ChrisM. There are other planned closures as well, but that one seemed the worse - apart from next weekend, 12 and 13 Nov, when the whole thing is shut.

[DrOne]

Nov 1, 2011 19:50:34 GMT Chris M said:

Indeed if all platforms at Poplar were available (Radbod's comment above suggests they might not have been) then it should theoretically have a higher reversing capacity with reversals off two platforms (and two through platforms for the Stratford - Bow Church - Canary Wharf service) compared to a trailing crossover a couple of train lengths west of Blackwall.

Although having said that the Beckton-line platforms at Poplar are normally the outer two and I can't remember the layout of junctions but it might be that reversals have to thread through the north-south service. Can someone point me in the direction of a track map for the area?

If I remember correctly, ex-Canning Town trains previously could terminate at Poplar and run just west of the station, reversing just before Westferry Jn. Would someone be able to confirm if this is/was possible?

[radbod]

Nov 2, 2011 16:15:12 GMT DrOne said:

Nov 1, 2011 19:50:34 GMT Chris M said:

Indeed if all platforms at Poplar were available (Radbod's comment above suggests they might not have been) then it should theoretically have a higher reversing capacity with reversals off two platforms (and two through platforms for the Stratford - Bow Church - Canary Wharf service) compared to a trailing crossover a couple of train lengths west of Blackwall.

Although having said that the Beckton-line platforms at Poplar are normally the outer two and I can't remember the layout of junctions but it might be that reversals have to thread through the north-south service. Can someone point me in the direction of a track map for the area?

If I remember correctly, ex-Canning Town trains previously could terminate at Poplar and run just west of the station, reversing just before Westferry Jn. Would someone be able to confirm if this is/was possible?

It was possible with a single unit. However, if you sent 2 or more units past the crossover, they would straddle the boundary between Vehicle Control Centres.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2011 19:29:26 GMT @radbod said:

It was possible with a single unit. However, if you sent 2 or more units past the crossover, they would straddle the boundary between Vehicle Control Centres.

Presumably you mean VCC as in Vehicle Control Computers? Until Beckton is online they're all in the same Centre in Poplar!

Incase any of you didn't know, this is what they look like
www.flickr.com/photos/lozzd/5695463379/in/set-72157626666023914/

[Deleted]

No, Radbod meant what he said - Vehicle Control CENTRE, that it the proper name of the VCC system.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2011 20:42:14 GMT @sw206 said:

No, Radbod meant what he said - Vehicle Control CENTRE, that it the proper name of the VCC system.

I stand corrected
.. I have a lot of pictures to correct now... The guy who gave the tour kept calling them the vehicle control computers!

[Deleted]

All these 'systems' have so many abbreviations, it's no surprise the names get modified as past around in various communications ! After all, the VCC is a collection of three rather old industrial PC's so I can see why they thought that was the name of it. Problem is all those other racks with the glass doors are also part of the VCC, so it is more than just the 3 computers.

[Deleted]

Nov 6, 2011 21:47:53 GMT @sw206 said:

All these 'systems' have so many abbreviations, it's no surprise the names get modified as past around in various communications ! After all, the VCC is a collection of three rather old industrial PC's so I can see why they thought that was the name of it. Problem is all those other racks with the glass doors are also part of the VCC, so it is more than just the 3 computers.

Ah, yes, that will be where the confusion came in (on my part). The picture was of the *computers* (1 2 and 3), but the racks with the other equipment and the three computers make up the *center*. Simple

[Deleted]

Me again.

Nov 1, 2011 9:22:28 GMT @radbod said:

There will be more work running up to the end of the year, including some full system closures. When it's all done, the control software will be running on newer servers, which should mean more reliable services.

I should thank Mr Radbod for these comments, but must say that when I described this at our office this caused laughter to our Business Continuity team, who keep our computer systems running international 24x7 with real-time transactions all the time, and proudly say they have never had a minute without service for many years now, through server upgrades and everything else. How this can take many whole weekends they cannot understand. Nor can I.

What wasn't laughter was getting from our house in Beckton to London and back by the bus yesterday.

They have buses which all have "Rail Replacement" in big lit-up letters on the front without saying at all where they are going, which is important at our local station because the buses going both ways come up a side street to the station so they could be going any way, sometimes two buses together and if you are not quick they just start going again and you miss it. There is a tiny little card in the drivers window, sometimes, which most people don't see, which can give a clue.

There were single buses going to Stratford and doubledecker buses going to Canary Wharf, which is a bit pointless when 90% of the Beckton passengers get off at Canning Town to get the Jubilee train - yes that was working . But as we found before, things are alright going, but coming home in evening at the Canning Town bus station, complete disorganisation, as always when like this.

No signs at all where Beckton bus could be, but we know. Buses to Beckton and for the other line to City Airport both from the same place and hugest crowd of maybe 100 people. We go to front and clueless girl (sorry, but true) in yellow coat shouts 'King George?', which means nothing to me but Mr D apparently knows as remote station on the other line so calls back 'Beckton' and we are pointed 'Over there' to biggest queue organised on that about 1 metre wide bit of pavement all along the OUTSIDE the bus shelter, on the road side. Bus comes along and nearly sweeps us all, but we all breathe in and is OK. Mr D starts making comments about “bet this bit isn’t in the ‘Method Statement’ or the ‘Risk assessment’, he knows about this stuff, and I have to restrain him from asking this at the front of the queue as otherwise we will be there all night.

Everyone slowly pushes into big doubledecker bus, girl now shouting ‘Go upstairs go upstairs’ wich we do to find all seats full and several standing so we come back down to find about 20 (yes really) standing downstairs so we have to stand on the stairs, and off we go.

Now we (well, you know who) knew that yesterday was the practicing for the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix but did not realise that our bus home would be involved in the practicing or that the A13 road was involved, when you have about 20 people standing up and people standing all up the stairs and then drive like the racing car so they all nearly all fall over then it is maybe not so funny.

Next time we’ll drive and give up having a glass of wine or two.

Not that most of you see 0430 of course.

Now Mr Radbod, you've obviously never had children!

[alholmes]

DLR really need to get a grip of the rail replacement services. With the entire network closed this weekend, it meant that five different routes converged on Canary Wharf. Plenty of staff in hi-viz jackets, but all they seemed to do yesterday when a bus pulled up was talk to the driver - would have been helpful if they'd announce to the assembled crowd where the bus was going to before boarding, rather than leave passengers to get on the bus and ask the driver first, then entering into a lengthy discussion with the driver about which bus they should be boarding.

One member of staff at Canary Wharf this afternoon was attempting to announce the destinations, but was often drowned out by the noise of the bus engines.

[radbod]

Nov 13, 2011 15:19:36 GMT @diana said:

Me again.

Nov 1, 2011 9:22:28 GMT @radbod said:

There will be more work running up to the end of the year, including some full system closures. When it's all done, the control software will be running on newer servers, which should mean more reliable services.

I should thank Mr Radbod for these comments, but must say that when I described this at our office this caused laughter to our Business Continuity team, who keep our computer systems running international 24x7 with real-time transactions all the time, and proudly say they have never had a minute without service for many years now, through server upgrades and everything else. How this can take many whole weekends they cannot understand. Nor can I.

I don't know why I keep replying to you, but here goes. Do your Business Continuity team have to convince Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate that sufficient testing has been carried out before they're permitted to switch on a new server? Do their servers control high voltage power supplies? Do they connect to signalling system wires that sit between two lengths of steel rail that are exposed to the elements at all times? If there is a blip in one of the systems is there a risk of two trains full of people being routed towards each other? I suggest that they contact Thales to find out why this stuff takes time rather than answering your stupid pointless questions all the time.

What wasn't laughter was getting from our house in Beckton to London and back by the bus yesterday.

They have buses which all have "Rail Replacement" in big lit-up letters on the front without saying at all where they are going, which is important at our local station because the buses going both ways come up a side street to the station so they could be going any way, sometimes two buses together and if you are not quick they just start going again and you miss it. There is a tiny little card in the drivers window, sometimes, which most people don't see, which can give a clue.

There were single buses going to Stratford and doubledecker buses going to Canary Wharf, which is a bit pointless when 90% of the Beckton passengers get off at Canning Town to get the Jubilee train - yes that was working . But as we found before, things are alright going, but coming home in evening at the Canning Town bus station, complete disorganisation, as always when like this.

No signs at all where Beckton bus could be, but we know. Buses to Beckton and for the other line to City Airport both from the same place and hugest crowd of maybe 100 people. We go to front and clueless girl (sorry, but true) in yellow coat shouts 'King George?', which means nothing to me but Mr D apparently knows as remote station on the other line so calls back 'Beckton' and we are pointed 'Over there' to biggest queue organised on that about 1 metre wide bit of pavement all along the OUTSIDE the bus shelter, on the road side. Bus comes along and nearly sweeps us all, but we all breathe in and is OK. Mr D starts making comments about “bet this bit isn’t in the ‘Method Statement’ or the ‘Risk assessment’, he knows about this stuff, and I have to restrain him from asking this at the front of the queue as otherwise we will be there all night.

Everyone slowly pushes into big doubledecker bus, girl now shouting ‘Go upstairs go upstairs’ wich we do to find all seats full and several standing so we come back down to find about 20 (yes really) standing downstairs so we have to stand on the stairs, and off we go.

Now we (well, you know who) knew that yesterday was the practicing for the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix but did not realise that our bus home would be involved in the practicing or that the A13 road was involved, when you have about 20 people standing up and people standing all up the stairs and then drive like the racing car so they all nearly all fall over then it is maybe not so funny.

Next time weÂ’ll drive and give up having a glass of wine or two.

Or you could move and stop bitching about stuff.

Not that most of you see 0430 of course.

Now Mr Radbod, you've obviously never had children!

[Chris M]

I haven't had to use the reaplacement buses this weekend (I used the 262 and travelled into town via Plaistow), but last weekend the organisation of the buses at Gallions Reach and Canary Wharf was just as chaotic. Both directions using the same bus stop at Gallions isn't ideal, but the road layout (if only they'd built a roundabout rather than traffic lights when they singled and realigned Armarda Way a few years ago[1] the buses could serve the stops actually close to the station) and shortage of bus stops in the area (I'd build another 4 if I had my way) don't allow much else. Unless someone had thought to use a temporary bus stop for the Beckton-bound service of course (there will be few people waiting for a replacement bus from Gallions Reach to Beckton, so a shelter isn't as important). More radically they could omit the Gallions Reach stop from the Beckton replacement services and extend the Woolwich repalcements round the end of the dock to serve Gallions Reach (Beckton-bound would require a trip round two roundabouts or a temporary bus stop) and Beckton, saving a lengthy diversion for Beckton passengers and possibly even being quicker for Gallions passengers given the lengthy detour required to serve Royal Albert and avoid the road closure between Custom House and Royal Victoria. The pax from Gallions Reach to stations between Cyprus and Canning Town could either walk to Cyprus, get a service bus or travel via Beckton.

For those not familiar with the area, see www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses/pdf/gallionsreachdlrstation-13617.pdf
All replacement buses use stop B, which is a bit closer to the roundabout than it looks on the map. The roundabout on Armarda way no longer exists - the road has been reduced to a single carriageway and the junction moved south to be a traffic light controlled crossroads (see osm.org/go/0EEQoezS). The bus stops I would build would be opposite stops B and E, and on either side of the road between the DLR and the bridge over the Albert Basin (there might once have been one northbound from the appearance of the road, I'm not sure about southbound).

I think the reason single decker buses are used for the SI service is due to a low bridge somewhere near West Ham station (the District Line run their replacement buses to Canning Town or Stratford rather than West Ham).


[1]Off topic, but does anyone know why all this expense of singling and realigning was gone to?