replacement buses: lack of information & capacity

[Chris M]

Yesterday (Sunday 29 January) at approximately 3:10pm I arrived at South Quay DLR station, wanting to travel north. I knew there was engineering works and a replacement bus service was in operation, however not being familiar with the area I didn't know where the bus would leave from.

The obvious bus stop (stop T on the "Isle of Dogs (South Quay)" spider map) was closed, with no indication of where the alternative was. Although I think this did have the hood indicating replacement buses stopped there. The announcements I've been hearing all week said the buses wouldn't serve Poplar or West India Quay, but made no mention of South Quay, so buses should be stopping somewhere near-by.

I therefore went to the area beneath the station looking for the posters detailing the replacement buses. However, despite signs advising me to see these posters for details, there were no posters anywhere I could find (although there was one detailing service changes in November 2011). This is the second time I've found no information about replacement buses at a DLR station closed for engineering works, the first being Royal Victoria a few months back, where I ended up walking to Custom House.

The local area map suggested that there were bus stops round the corner in Limeharbour. I did find stop S, but it gave no indication that replacement buses would stop there and indeed one had gone passed without stopping as I rounded the corner.

thinking that maybe there was another stop nearby I carried on walking, only to arrive at Crossharbour station before finding any northbound stop that was both open and served by replacement buses.

However, when a replacement bus finally appeared it was full to capacity and so none of the dozen or so people waiting at the stop could board, despite the apologetic driver.

Realising that with more people likely wanting to travel soon, I elected to get the D6 that arrived at the same time as the replacement bus (I know from a previous journey that this bus goes near Blackwall DLR). I was not the only one to do this.

There was clearly a very significant under-provision of replacement buses. It seems from the frequency that one bus was being used to replace 1 train, despite the significant disparity in capacity.

[Deep Level]

South Quay to Blackwall is a distance I would've happily walked, not far at all.

[Deleted]

The DLR normally specify the service as a bus every 7/8 or every 10 minutes depending upon the branch. However events in Docklands are not always communicated to the DLR and indeed the bus operator. This particularly happens when Hotels have business or fashion events. As a result the service can become very busy. Nonetheless bus operators can feed back unusual traffic patterns to London Buses on Monday morning. Obviously if the matter is particularly serious (on the day) we can talk to the person responsible for bus procurement and request the supply of emergency buses. I understand this has happened once or twice on the DLR. Its not however a regular practice.

There is also an expectation that customers will use local buses and local rail routes when they know the DLR is disrupted. So often the service is deliberately under specified on this basis.

The closure of South Quay has been happening sporadically over the last couple of months. The road is closed at weekends for repairs to a building nearby. Unfortunately as we found out last time when we ran the service, the road can open and close at a whim which makes diverting the bus service at the right times very tricky.

Lastly DLR have been very good on the publicity front. For the last few closures they have printed a very good A4 leaflet (folded in two) which details bus stopping places and route patterns. In addition the details are normally also available on their website. The DLR staff do get out and about checking on publicity the supply of buses and support staff, so I am surprised they have missed an old poster. Unfortunately at Canary Wharf and South Quay the roads and footways outside the DLR stations are private property and “Policed” rigorously by Canary Wharfs security guards. They will not allow any additional notices to be placed outside the boundaries of the station. So posters on frames outside the premises near bus stops (or directing customers to the bus stop) are unfortunately not permitted.

Dean

[Chris M]

It wasn't the road that was closed at South Quay, just the bus stop layby and the pavement between there and the station.

I know the DLR's website is usually very good, but I didn't know in advance I'd be travelling from South Quay and my phone is to old to deal with many modern websites or PDFs so I had no way of getting the information while I was out and about. I've always been impressed by the clarity of the replacement bus posters the DLR produce (often better for finding your bus stop than the LU ones) but that doesn't help if you can't find them!

I wonder if the person responsible for checking posters on the Canary Wharf branch has been off work or something, as I spotted a "Continuing your journey from Crossharbour" poster at West India Quay the other day.

Jan 30, 2012 2:10:54 GMT Deep Level said:

South Quay to Blackwall is a distance I would've happily walked, not far at all.

Normally I would have done, but I was absolutely knackered (although the previous time I tried to walk from Blackwall to the Isle of Dogs (photographing for the Christmas quiz) I got lost and ended up at Billingsgate). Also, Blackwall wasn't my destination, it was just a location from which I could get a train to Gallions Reach - there is something psychologically different about walking a short way as a whole journey and walking a short way as the first leg of a longer journey.

[Deleted]

In my experience when there are replacement buses on the Metropolitan Line, there is no shortage of staff to guide passengers to the right bus stop - essential of course of you are at intermediate station and buses go in both directions.

[Deep Level]

Jan 30, 2012 12:27:20 GMT Chris M said:

Jan 30, 2012 2:10:54 GMT Deep Level said:

South Quay to Blackwall is a distance I would've happily walked, not far at all.

Normally I would have done, but I was absolutely knackered (although the previous time I tried to walk from Blackwall to the Isle of Dogs (photographing for the Christmas quiz) I got lost and ended up at Billingsgate). Also, Blackwall wasn't my destination, it was just a location from which I could get a train to Gallions Reach - there is something psychologically different about walking a short way as a whole journey and walking a short way as the first leg of a longer journey.

I sure hope you mean Billingsgate Market because if you walked from Blackwall to South Quay but ended up in Billingsgate, you made a huge error on that journey somewhere ;D.

[Chris M]

I do indeed mean Billingsgate Market! My navigation skills aren't that bad!

[Chris M]

Jan 30, 2012 14:31:03 GMT @dalesman said:

In my experience when there are replacement buses on the Metropolitan Line, there is no shortage of staff to guide passengers to the right bus stop - essential of course of you are at intermediate station and buses go in both directions.

The only places I've seen staff directing people to DLR replacement buses are Canary Wharf and Canning Town. There are usually staff at Beckton but they appear to be more concerned with marshalling buses than passengers.
Presumably there are also staff at Bank and Tower Gateway, but I've never had cause to use replacement buses to or from there.

[Deleted]

London Underground supply contract staff who wear blue tabards (with the LUL roundel on the back and front) to direct and assist passengers. These are placed near the entrances to busy stations and near or at bus stops. Originally almost every station had these, but budget constraints mean that these positions have been reduced.

Bus operators also supply Service Control Staff, whose sole job it is to regulate buses. These will be placed ideally on the stand which is away from the public. Certain high frequency jobs require a lot of concentration, so they prefer to manage the service behind the scenes. Although at certain locations like say Harrow on the Hill, the presence of bus supervisors is obvious as the stand also doubles as the departure point.

Bus operators are also required to supply navigators (or Pilots) to assist drivers with route knowledge. Ideally (In the real world - its often different!) our Navigators wear Orange Hi-Vis to distinguish themselves from the service supervisors.

The problem is, Customers see anyone wearing a Hi-Vis as LUL staff (inc our drivers) and then will approach them with questions. As a result the contract staff in Blue Tabards and our supervisors will have been issued with an LUL produced guide to the weekends closure. It’s quite detailed. Where possible we also try to distribute this to the navigators, but obviously bus drivers may not know the full contents of the document.

Drivers are issued with company supplied maps. The Quality might vary between operators. We supply colour mapping with details of stopping arrangements and hazards on route. We also try to show diversionary routes, light running and stand details. If we know of a particularly good cafe - that might go in too!

In staffing terms - The DLR approach things differently and have a lower requirement for road staff. Nonetheless Bus Service Supervisors are required as a minimum at both ends of the route. We also supply DLR when asked for staff for Bank, Canary Wharf, Canning Town and London City Airport.

Standards differ on National Rail with occasionally no service control staff or customer assistance.

Dean

[Deep Level]

There was a lot of Staff at Island Gardens on Saturday.

[elsombernie]

Jan 30, 2012 1:05:40 GMT Chris M said:

Yesterday (Sunday 29 January) at approximately 3:10pm I arrived at South Quay DLR station <snip>

The obvious bus stop (stop T on the "Isle of Dogs (South Quay)" spider map) was closed, with no indication of where the alternative was. Although I think this did have the hood indicating replacement buses stopped there.

From memory:
1) Stop T was the official stop for northbound buses at South Quay.
2) At 3pm, the frequency of the buses was scheduled as every 7 minutes.
3) DLR requested (and were provided with) CIAs (2 per shift) at Canary Wharf and Island Gardens, as well as an additional three 'pilots' per shift at Canary Wharf, who acted as CIAs when not required to act as pilots.

I'll check with one of the controllers tomorrow to see if there were any reported problems with Sunday afternoons service.

[Deleted]

Hello, me again.

This goes with some recent comments I wrote here when our Beckton DLR trains were gone at the weekend one or two months ago. At our station you would not know where to wait for the bus if you had not done it before even though the bus comes up specially to the station because there is no bus stop sign anywhere. But at Canning Town station it is so confusing if you have not done it before, there is no sign for where to get the bus when you come up the escalators and there are other buses all around.

The drivers of the buses can be helpful although because they are behind the glass window you can't really get close enough to speak to them without them shutting the door and starting driving and then you find you are in the one going the other way, happened to my friend. We have said that the drivers of the special blue buses seem better than the drivers of the special red buses at talking to people.

There is a big board at our station steps when this happens but the information on the bus routes is only shown on a map drawing which probably looks good on the CAD station to the man who draws it, but to us normal passengers are not so good and really difficult to understand.

Looking at what got written here it is like there is a lot of management of the buses being exactly on a timetable but not to help the people actually get to where they want to go.

[elsombernie]

Jan 30, 2012 22:10:47 GMT elsombernie said:

Jan 30, 2012 1:05:40 GMT Chris M said:

Yesterday (Sunday 29 January) at approximately 3:10pm I arrived at South Quay DLR station <snip>

The obvious bus stop (stop T on the "Isle of Dogs (South Quay)" spider map) was closed, with no indication of where the alternative was. Although I think this did have the hood indicating replacement buses stopped there.

From memory:
1) Stop T was the official stop for northbound buses at South Quay.
2) At 3pm, the frequency of the buses was scheduled as every 7 minutes.
3) DLR requested (and were provided with) CIAs (2 per shift) at Canary Wharf and Island Gardens, as well as an additional three 'pilots' per shift at Canary Wharf, who acted as CIAs when not required to act as pilots.

I'll check with one of the controllers tomorrow to see if there were any reported problems with Sunday afternoons service.

To update my own post:
There was one CIA per shift at Westferry, Canary Wharf and Island Gardens, and the pilots were based at Westferry in the mornings and Island Gardens in the afternoons.

Both the stops at South Quay were closed off, with no notification.
The controller I spoke to said that the loadings were heavy all day, with buses frequently leaving Island Gardens with standing loads.

[Chris M]

So why was nothing done to inform passengers at South Quay where to go?
There was no indication that I can remember that the southbound stop (opposite stop T, sorry I don't have the map to hand) was closed (I can't remember whether I saw a service bus stop there or not), but the one opposite S was clearly marked as closed (although the reason why was not at all apparent) with a temporary stop sign about 20 yards south.

The lack of staff at South Quay would not have been a problem if there had been posters directing you to where the replacement bus stops were.

If the buses were heavily loaded all day why were more not sourced to run extras and/or an increased frequency run? (I understand that the latter might not have been possible though).

Has all this been taken into account for when the next shutdown on that branch happens? e.g. has any thought been given to running two services, one all stations and one express Westferry-Canary Wharf-Island Gardens?

I probably should have mentioned that I submitted my original complaint through the TfL website as well, although I've not had a response yet (but based on previous experience I don't expect one for a couple of weeks at least)

[elsombernie]

Jan 31, 2012 23:35:31 GMT Chris M said:

So why was nothing done to inform passengers at South Quay where to go?
There was no indication that I can remember that the southbound stop (opposite stop T, sorry I don't have the map to hand) was closed (I can't remember whether I saw a service bus stop there or not), but the one opposite S was clearly marked as closed (although the reason why was not at all apparent) with a temporary stop sign about 20 yards south.

The lack of staff at South Quay would not have been a problem if there had been posters directing you to where the replacement bus stops were.

If the buses were heavily loaded all day why were more not sourced to run extras and/or an increased frequency run? (I understand that the latter might not have been possible though).

Has all this been taken into account for when the next shutdown on that branch happens? e.g. has any thought been given to running two services, one all stations and one express Westferry-Canary Wharf-Island Gardens?

I probably should have mentioned that I submitted my original complaint through the TfL website as well, although I've not had a response yet (but based on previous experience I don't expect one for a couple of weeks at least)

re: South Quay: You will need to ask DLR. But if DLR haven't been told there's a 'problem', there's not much they can do about it.

re: extra buses: It may well have been suggested by the controllers that extra buses were run, but you don't do things 'off your own back' unless you have a cast iron guarantee that you will be paid for it.

re: Alternative services: Again, you will need to ask DLR. However, after each RRS, bus operators supply feedback to London Buses, who procure the RRS services. Until comparatively recently, there used to be services as you suggest, but IIRC the fast service ran Westferry - Island Gardens direct.

[Chris M]

Another experience of DLR replacement buses yesterday, and again it didn't go smoothly, although this was mostly not the fault of DLR on this occasion.

The way back from Canning Town to Gallions Reach worked pretty much as it should, although Canning Town could do with more signs in the bus station about which stops to catch the replacement buses from. I only had a minute and a half wait for a Beckton service, but I did hear someone complain that it was the third in 10 minutes for there, with the implication being there hadn't been one in at least that long to North Woolwich.

The way out was a different mater though with apparently no replacement buses from Gallions Reach calling at Canning Town due to the A13 being shut (I presume a road accident though I don't know). They were apparently terminating at Custom House where we'd have to get a local bus. However, at present there are no local buses between Custom House and Canning Town, with both the 147 and 241 diverted to Prince Regent due to the closure of Victoria Dock Road. At Prince Regent the 300 does go to Canning Town, but my experience of this stretch of the 300 has always been one of inadequate capacity when anything happens to the DLR.
I opted instead to take a 474, but there was no evidence of disruption to the replacement buses when I got to Canning Town (although to be fair I didn't hang around as I was already late by this point).

There was no information about any disruption to replacement buses on the TfL website 5 minutes before I got to the replacement bus stop.

[DWS]

Road works have closed the Canning Town roundabout from the A13.

[Chris M]

What joined up thinking regarding the timing of works.

[Deep Level]

Feb 12, 2012 14:52:26 GMT DWS said:

Road works have closed the Canning Town roundabout from the A13.

Off Topic: They are getting rid of the roundabout.

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2012 17:34:01 GMT Deep Level said:

Feb 12, 2012 14:52:26 GMT DWS said:

Road works have closed the Canning Town roundabout from the A13.

Off Topic: They are getting rid of the roundabout.

the road works @ Canning Town are running extremely late! The slip needs work so it can close and the new one can open.

The road works are more important as this is a Olympic route ;D


The buses could have gone Prince Regent - then Barking Road if they was a huge need to serve Canning town

[Deep Level]

Feb 12, 2012 21:39:20 GMT @dannyeastlondon said:

Feb 12, 2012 17:34:01 GMT Deep Level said:

Off Topic: They are getting rid of the roundabout.

the road works @ Canning Town are running extremely late! The slip needs work so it can close and the new one can open.

The road works are more important as this is a Olympic route ;D


The buses could have gone Prince Regent - then Barking Road if they was a huge need to serve Canning town

There will be no more access from to the Eastbound A13 and from the Westbound A13 here any more, to get onto the Eastbound A13 you'll have to go up Barking Road and down Beckton Road and a new slip will be built off the Westbound A13 which will join a rebuilt Rathbone Street & Hallsville Road and come out on Silvertown Way.

Back on topic, as this is going to be a permanent measure I understand why they wont take Rail Replacements into consideration and it isn't difficult to use Barking Road & New Barn Street.

[elsombernie]

Feb 12, 2012 22:25:06 GMT Deep Level said:

Feb 12, 2012 21:39:20 GMT @dannyeastlondon said:

the road works @ Canning Town are running extremely late! The slip needs work so it can close and the new one can open.

The road works are more important as this is a Olympic route ;D


The buses could have gone Prince Regent - then Barking Road if they was a huge need to serve Canning town

There will be no more access from to the Eastbound A13 and from the Westbound A13 here any more, to get onto the Eastbound A13 you'll have to go up Barking Road and down Beckton Road and a new slip will be built off the Westbound A13 which will join a rebuilt Rathbone Street & Hallsville Road and come out on Silvertown Way.

Back on topic, as this is going to be a permanent measure I understand why they wont take Rail Replacements into consideration and it isn't difficult to use Barking Road & New Barn Street.

I thought that Barking Road was going to become westbound only between Beckton Road and the roundabout, with eastbound traffic using the A13 slip road and a new road just west of Beckton Road which exits onto Barking Road opposite Hermit Road.

[Chris M]

Feb 12, 2012 21:39:20 GMT @dannyeastlondon said:

The buses could have gone Prince Regent - then Barking Road if they was a huge need to serve Canning town

Canning Town is the second most important interchange station in East London (after Stratford), so yes there was a need to serve it!
The problem with diverting after Prince Regent is that it misses out Custom House. I don't know whether there was an event on yesterday at Excel, but when there is Custom House is usually the busiest station on the Beckton branch.

Feb 12, 2012 22:25:06 GMT Deep Level said:

Back on topic, as this is going to be a permanent measure I understand why they wont take Rail Replacements into consideration

That's fair enough, but only when Victoria Dock Road isn't also closed due to roadworks. Despite what some planners seem to think, people east of the City don't all stay home at all weekend. AIUI some common sense did prevail, and the scheduled closure of the Woolwich Ferry didn't happen.

[Colin]

I've just completed my first weekend driving rail replacement buses for Ensign Bus (strange to be back on the buses proper after 10 years away, all be it odd job part time....).....

Any way, whoever told you that information was completely and utterly wrong Chris!!

For starters Gallions Reach was served by buses that also went to Canning Town (though in fairness the bus stop is a long way from the actual station and many users didn't know where to wait/get off), and no buses were ever terminated at Custom House.

We did have a lot of problems with excessive late running caused by the closure of the A13 slip road, so the decision was taken - by who, I know not - to have the Beckton/Canary Wharf service not call at Canning Town.

This meant that Canning Town was only served by the Beckton/Stratford service........and if you know your stuff you'll know that the desperately needed double deckers were therefore running round half empty & missing out Canning Town whilst the single deckers were serving Canning Town but leaving people behind. For those not in the know, the Beckton/Stratford service has to be single deck owing to low bridges in the West Ham area.

Some relief did come in the early evening on both the Saturday & Sunday when the double deckers served Canning Town on their Beckton bound journeys, but I can certainly understand passengers being frustrated.

As for the comments regarding waiting times; all routes had 10 minute frequencies.

[Chris M]

The information came from the driver of a Beckton-"Custom House" rail replacement double-decker bus who was at the Gallions Reach stop a few minutes after 10am on Saturday.

I've commented before (I'm fairly certain) about the location of the bus stop at Gallions Reach, but short of buses U-turning at the Atlantis Avenue/Armarda Way crossroads (or taking a significant detour to the roundabout at the entrance to the depot) there isn't a way for them to reach the best-sited stops. Why that junction isn't a roundabout I don't know - it was before it was moved.

As for which buses to divert, I'd have thought that the single-deck Stratford service would have been better, as Jubilee Line connections would still be available at West Ham.

[Colin]

Feb 13, 2012 1:41:39 GMT Chris M said:

The information came from the driver of a Beckton-"Custom House" rail replacement double-decker bus who was at the Gallions Reach stop a few minutes after 10am on Saturday.

Interesting - I started at 8am on Saturday and there was definitely no such service. I can only assume a rogue driver was up to no good - sadly such individuals do exist.

What a shame that the hard work put in by some of us is so easily undone by one person

Feb 13, 2012 1:41:39 GMT Chris M said:

As for which buses to divert, I'd have thought that the single-deck Stratford service would have been better, as Jubilee Line connections would still be available at West Ham.

On paper, yes...........however......

Given that the Stratford buses still needed to get to Manor Road, via the roundabout that also accesses Canning Town station....................and given that the Canary Wharf buses head back onto the A13 after Canning Town............now you can see why the decision was easy for the person that made it. It was never about what was best for the users - it was always about what suited the destination of the buses.

I can't say I agree with it but I can see why it was done.

[Deep Level]

Feb 12, 2012 23:03:54 GMT elsombernie said:

Feb 12, 2012 22:25:06 GMT Deep Level said:

There will be no more access from to the Eastbound A13 and from the Westbound A13 here any more, to get onto the Eastbound A13 you'll have to go up Barking Road and down Beckton Road and a new slip will be built off the Westbound A13 which will join a rebuilt Rathbone Street & Hallsville Road and come out on Silvertown Way.

Back on topic, as this is going to be a permanent measure I understand why they wont take Rail Replacements into consideration and it isn't difficult to use Barking Road & New Barn Street.

I thought that Barking Road was going to become westbound only between Beckton Road and the roundabout, with eastbound traffic using the A13 slip road and a new road just west of Beckton Road which exits onto Barking Road opposite Hermit Road.

Not sure where that idea came from but that isn't the case, the only "operational" change is that there will be no slip road to and from what is currently Canning Town Roundabout (won't be a roundabout when finished) to the A13 to and from the East.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2012 1:21:40 GMT Colin said:

I've just completed my first weekend driving rail replacement buses for Ensign Bus (strange to be back on the buses proper after 10 years away, all be it odd job part time....).....

Any way, whoever told you that information was completely and utterly wrong Chris!!

For starters Gallions Reach was served by buses that also went to Canning Town (though in fairness the bus stop is a long way from the actual station and many users didn't know where to wait/get off), and no buses were ever terminated at Custom House.

We did have a lot of problems with excessive late running caused by the closure of the A13 slip road, so the decision was taken - by who, I know not - to have the Beckton/Canary Wharf service not call at Canning Town.

This meant that Canning Town was only served by the Beckton/Stratford service........and if you know your stuff you'll know that the desperately needed double deckers were therefore running round half empty & missing out Canning Town whilst the single deckers were serving Canning Town but leaving people behind. For those not in the know, the Beckton/Stratford service has to be single deck owing to low bridges in the West Ham area.

Some relief did come in the early evening on both the Saturday & Sunday when the double deckers served Canning Town on their Beckton bound journeys, but I can certainly understand passengers being frustrated.

As for the comments regarding waiting times; all routes had 10 minute frequencies.

Can I ask what route the buses took to serve Canning Town? I assume they went from Beckton rout towards North Woolwich?

Or did they double back over after the Canning town flyover?

Also forgot buses could have used New Barn Street when I said Prince Regent ;D


But all this could have been made easier if companies just made a effort to speak to each other. Not sure who is to blame here DLR or the A13 contractors BUT I suspect the latter as the work is running stupidly late....

[Chris M]

Beckton-Canning Town via North Woolwich doesn't make sense for a DLR replacement route as you can't serve any intermediate stations on the Beckton branch west of Cyprus without serious doubling back.
You could run a circular route, but you'd need to serve a different stop at Gallions Reach Beckton-bound (E or J on this map, the small roundabout east of the DLR no longer exists), and the only possible ones are a long way from the station - indeed the Cyprus stops are going to be a similar distance from Gallions station.

[Colin]

Feb 13, 2012 17:18:30 GMT @dannyeastlondon said:

Can I ask what route the buses took to serve Canning Town? I assume they went from Beckton rout towards North Woolwich?

Or did they 'double back' over after the Canning town flyover?

We had to double back over the the Canning Town flyover, using the buses only lane west thereof.

There were two routes from Beckton:

Beckton to Canary Wharf, using double deckers & calling at:
Beckton, Gallions Reach, Cyprus, Beckton Park, Royal Albert, Prince Regent, Custom House, *Canning Town, East India, Blackwall, Canary Wharf.

Beckton to Stratford, using single deckers & calling at:
Beckton, Gallions Reach, Cyprus, Beckton Park, Royal Albert, Prince Regent, Custom House, Canning Town, Star Lane, West Ham, Abbey Road, Stratford High Street, Stratford.

North Woolwich is an entirely separate branch from the Beckton one - don't forget, this was a rail replacement service and so the actual rail service is replicated as far as is physically possible. This service was also double deck operated an ran thus:
North Woolwich, King George V, London City Airport, Pontoon Dock, West Silvertown, Canning Town, East India, Blackwall, Canary Wharf.