Last of the C stock

[Deleted]

Good evening all,

I know this question is a bit early to ask and I may be a bit ahead of myself but just a quicky...

Does anyone know when the provisional C stock's last day in service is? Just planning ahead.

[class411]

Oct 25, 2012 20:53:55 GMT @jake33 said:

Good evening all,

I know this question is a bit early to ask and I may be a bit ahead of myself but just a quicky...

Does anyone know when the provisional C stock's last day in service is? Just planning ahead.

I would imagine the answer to that question is: No.

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2012 20:53:55 GMT @jake33 said:

Good evening all,

I know this question is a bit early to ask and I may be a bit ahead of myself but just a quicky...

Does anyone know when the provisional C stock's last day in service is? Just planning ahead.

The end of 2013. can't be closer date wise than that

[Deleted]

does anyone know when the next sets of c stock are due to be withdrawn?.

[class411]

The whole replacement seems to have ground to an almost surreal halt.

At the start of 2012 tfl's were saying that the C stock would be replace starting mid year. A couple of units of S stock did appear but nothing much was happening.

Then people were saying that it would all start with the time-table change at the start of December '12. Again, a few more units of S stock entered service and up to the end of the year they were being manufactured although, apparently not delivered or commissioned.

Since the start of the year only two sets of S stock have been delivered, one is in service on the Met and the other has been stuck at the Neasden depot for over two months.

According to the tfl forums website which was being updated roughly bi-weekly, no new stock has been manufactured and no stock awaiting testing has been delivered since the 8th of January.

Some have suggested that it will all start happening with the May timetable change but, looking at the way tfl just keep pushing the date back ~six months at a time and the apparent hiatus in manufacturing and delivery this is looking increasingly unlikely.

And, of course, if there is no commissioned S stock to replace it, the C stock cannot be withdrawn.

[Deleted]

thanks for that info.

[domh245]

I beleive that they have stopped building S7s because a) they have run out of space to store them and b) they are rebuilding the S8s. I beleive that they have stopped delivering S7s as there were driver training issues, and only recently have they trained enough drivers to start running S7s more frequently, so the Cs will start disappearing more often after the WTT change, when more and more trains will be designated as S7

[Dstock7080]

Mar 11, 2013 15:52:39 GMT @romancity said:

does anyone know when the next sets of c stock are due to be withdrawn?.

As was recently posted by juliang :
districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/363204

[class411]

Mar 11, 2013 18:20:03 GMT domh245 said:

I beleive that they have stopped building S7s because a) they have run out of space to store them and b) they are rebuilding the S8s.

Would that not imply that Bombardier have laid off virtually all those involved in manufacturing S7's? There can only be a small fraction of the workforce needed to make the modifications to the S8's.

I beleive that they have stopped delivering S7s as there were driver training issues, and only recently have they trained enough drivers to start running S7s more frequently, so the Cs will start disappearing more often after the WTT change, when more and more trains will be designated as S7

Given that tfl have been telling us these units would be on the H&C in the next few months since around 2009 how could they possibly not have foreseen any driver training issues?

What is different about driving S7's compared to S8's - the S8 introduction seemed to go smoothly enough.

And why do they need yet another change to the WTT to replace one train with another? (Bear in mind that late last year people were saying that the December WTT would allow the running of S7's.)

[Dstock7080]

Mar 11, 2013 18:38:56 GMT class411 said:

And why do they need yet another change to the WTT to replace one train with another? (Bear in mind that late last year people were saying that the December WTT would allow the running of S7's.)

They DID start running with the new WTT, the first day in fact! Since then up to 4 have been running on weekdays. Today, 2 were running T231 (T261 in peaks), T245.

[Deleted]

cheers for that d stock7080.

[domh245]

As for manufacturing layoffs, that is quite unlikely. I'm sure that they will have found a use for those not involved in the S8 rebuild, even if it is something as simple as putting together components which can be stored until ready for use later on (eg building and testing the cabs ready for when they actual build the rest of the train).

The Hammersmith & City Line is interlinked with the Circle line, meaning that the logistics of ensuring that there are enough drivers to work the S7 workings was fairly difficult, especially as this took away from the rest of the pool, the "lucky" few would (I imagine) be reserved almost exclusively to working the H&C. When the WTT was drawn in up (about) November, they realised that there wouldn't be enough drivers to have lots of S7 trains, and only now, once most of the drivers have been trained, can they have more S7 trains.

Please remember though, that I am a mere punter, who rarely sees a H&C train, let alone knows the details of their workings. Your best bet for knowledge would be to either PM a member of LU staff involved with SSL operation (Dstock7080 for example) or to read the S Stock introduction thread.

[class411]

Mar 11, 2013 18:58:26 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Mar 11, 2013 18:38:56 GMT class411 said:

And why do they need yet another change to the WTT to replace one train with another? (Bear in mind that late last year people were saying that the December WTT would allow the running of S7's.)

They DID start running with the new WTT, the first day in fact! Since then up to 4 have been running on weekdays. Today, 2 were running T231 (T261 in peaks), T245.

Yes, they started running a token service but the point I was making was that tfl said that the S7's would be introduced from the middle of 2012 (after already putting it back several times). When this didn't happen people were saying that they needed to wait until the introduction of a new WTT in December and then the replacement would start in earnest.

What actually happened was that they just started running a couple more trains.

It cannot possibly be said that they are progressing this replacement in an orderly, planned, fashion when they need to replace dozens of units and have only managed to get seven pairs running in nearly a year and haven't even taken delivery of any for two months.

Is there even the slightest chance that the H&C replacement will be completed by the end of this year as tfl had stated?

[class411]

Mar 11, 2013 19:09:16 GMT domh245 said:

As for manufacturing layoffs, that is quite unlikely. I'm sure that they will have found a use for those not involved in the S8 rebuild, even if it is something as simple as putting together components which can be stored until ready for use later on (eg building and testing the cabs ready for when they actual build the rest of the train).

I thought it was just bogie replacement. Surely they don't need to take over all the final assembly facilities just to replace bogies?

The Hammersmith & City Line is interlinked with the Circle line, meaning that the logistics of ensuring that there are enough drivers to work the S7 workings was fairly difficult, especially as this took away from the rest of the pool, the "lucky" few would (I imagine) be reserved almost exclusively to working the H&C. When the WTT was drawn in up (about) November, they realised that there wouldn't be enough drivers to have lots of S7 trains, and only now, once most of the drivers have been trained, can they have more S7 trains.

But, surely LU actually plan these things?

I can't believe they are so dense that they don't realise until a month before the new timetable that they will actually need drivers for the new trains. This should all have been planned for months, if not years in advance.

And nothing really explained why, as drivers are trained, they cannot steadily introduce the new stock.

Your best bet for knowledge would be to either PM a member of LU staff involved with SSL operation (Dstock7080 for example) or to read the S Stock introduction thread.

I do read that thread but it does not enlighten.

It just seems that there is some very fundamental problem with the introduction of this stock that means that the replacement that should have been around half complete by this time has barely begun.

Is it because there has been some cock-up so monumentally unbelievable that no one wants to admit it?

[domh245]

Well. I doubt they will have an issue with getting the S7s built, with 35 just sitting about. (see racka's post here

[1018509]

Mar 11, 2013 19:22:28 GMT class411 said:

Mar 11, 2013 19:09:16 GMT domh245 said:

As for manufacturing layoffs, that is quite unlikely. I'm sure that they will have found a use for those not involved in the S8 rebuild, even if it is something as simple as putting together components which can be stored until ready for use later on (eg building and testing the cabs ready for when they actual build the rest of the train).

I thought it was just bogie replacement. Surely they don't need to take over all the final assembly facilities just to replace bogies?

The Hammersmith & City Line is interlinked with the Circle line, meaning that the logistics of ensuring that there are enough drivers to work the S7 workings was fairly difficult, especially as this took away from the rest of the pool, the "lucky" few would (I imagine) be reserved almost exclusively to working the H&C. When the WTT was drawn in up (about) November, they realised that there wouldn't be enough drivers to have lots of S7 trains, and only now, once most of the drivers have been trained, can they have more S7 trains.

But, surely LU actually plan these things?

I can't believe they are so dense that they don't realise until a month before the new timetable that they will actually need drivers for the new trains. This should all have been planned for months, if not years in advance.

And nothing really explained why, as drivers are trained, they cannot steadily introduce the new stock.

Your best bet for knowledge would be to either PM a member of LU staff involved with SSL operation (Dstock7080 for example) or to read the S Stock introduction thread.

I do read that thread but it does not enlighten.

It just seems that there is some very fundamental problem with the introduction of this stock that means that the replacement that should have been around half complete by this time has barely begun.

Is it because there has been some cock-up so monumentally unbelievable that no one wants to admit it?

Just swap the first two words of the above sentence around and you have the answer. This is classic LUL.

[roythebus]

Talking about the last of the C stock, sorting through my photo collection reveals a picture of one of the FIRST C stock trains, taken at Ealing Broadway Central Line platform, circa 1970/71! This would have been on either a training or delivery trip. ISTR they were brought in from BR via West Ruislip Depot, then via the DR, Picc to Rayners Lane, then Met to Neasden. This was before the Ruislip curve was built.

Gosh, was it that long ago?

[class411]

Mar 12, 2013 17:36:51 GMT 1018509 said:

Mar 11, 2013 19:22:28 GMT class411 said:

Is it because there has been some cock-up so monumentally unbelievable that no one wants to admit it?

Just swap the first two words of the above sentence around and you have the answer. This is classic LUL.

When I asked about the non introduction in the middle of last year, sage voices said 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in December' (despite LU boasting about the upgrade and telling us that the stock would be introduced in, originally, 2009, then 2010, 2011, and, finally, 2012.)

When I again mooted the subject early this year it was: 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in May'.

I'm wondering if, come June we'll be back to 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in December' 

Having said that, the Saturday before last I did see three S7's stabled at Hammersmith. Just none actually moving up and down the tracks.

[Harsig]

Apr 27, 2013 7:09:14 GMT class411 said:

When I again mooted the subject early this year it was: 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in May'.

I'm wondering if, come June we'll be back to 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in December' 

Having said that, the Saturday before last I did see three S7's stabled at Hammersmith. Just none actually moving up and down the tracks.

Each new timetable is one further step in the process. For most of the period of the current (last December) timetable S7s have not been permitted to operate in passenger service via the south side of the Circle Line. Therefore S7s had to be restricted to the Hammersmith to Barking service. It is surprising that the previous timetable actually contained very few trains which did not at some point during the day make at least one trip via the prohibited parts of the circle. This seriously limited the number of trains that S7s could be employed on. The December timetable increased the number of trains that did not venture onto the forbidden parts of the circle line.

The other issue affecting S7 introduction is stabling. Being longer than C stock many existing stabling locations will only be able to accommodate a smaller number of trains and some places will be unusable. Therefore additional stabling will have to be found elsewhere. The forthcoming May timetable begins to address this issue with the introduction of S7 stabling at Wembley Park. Up to four H&C trains will stable at Wembley each day and these will have to operate as S7s because they are due to be worked between Baker Street and Wembley by Met line drivers who are not qualified on C stock. Wembley Sidings were not available for stabling when the December timetable was introduced.

The May timetable will not be the end of the story as further changes will definitely be required to stabling arrangements as more S7s are introduced. For example eventually it will be necessary to abandon stabling trains at Farringdon.

[class411]

Apr 27, 2013 8:31:55 GMT Harsig said:

Apr 27, 2013 7:09:14 GMT class411 said:

When I again mooted the subject early this year it was: 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in May'.

I'm wondering if, come June we'll be back to 'you won't seen anything until the new timetable starts in December' 

Having said that, the Saturday before last I did see three S7's stabled at Hammersmith. Just none actually moving up and down the tracks.

Each new timetable is one further step in the process. For most of the period of the current (last December) timetable S7s have not been permitted to operate in passenger service via the south side of the Circle Line. Therefore S7s had to be restricted to the Hammersmith to Barking service. It is surprising that the previous timetable actually contained very few trains which did not at some point during the day make at least one trip via the prohibited parts of the circle. This seriously limited the number of trains that S7s could be employed on. The December timetable increased the number of trains that did not venture onto the forbidden parts of the circle line.

The other issue affecting S7 introduction is stabling. Being longer than C stock many existing stabling locations will only be able to accommodate a smaller number of trains and some places will be unusable. Therefore additional stabling will have to be found elsewhere. The forthcoming May timetable begins to address this issue with the introduction of S7 stabling at Wembley Park. Up to four H&C trains will stable at Wembley each day and these will have to operate as S7s because they are due to be worked between Baker Street and Wembley by Met line drivers who are not qualified on C stock. Wembley Sidings were not available for stabling when the December timetable was introduced.

The May timetable will not be the end of the story as further changes will definitely be required to stabling arrangements as more S7s are introduced. For example eventually it will be necessary to abandon stabling trains at Farringdon.

Thanks for that.

In all the time I've been banging on about the lack of significant introduction that's the first time I've seen something that actually makes complete sense.

It's still amazing that LU have been telling us that these units would be introduced 'soon' for so long when there appears to be a very concrete reason why it couldn't happen.

When will S7's be able to traverse the entire circle line - and what is the current problem with them being used there (and how come LU couldn't get it sorted between 2009 [which was the original date for the introduction IIRC] and now)?

[Dstock7080]

Apr 27, 2013 9:08:45 GMT class411 said:

Thanks for that.
When will S7's be able to traverse the entire circle line - and what is the current problem with them being used there (and how come LU couldn't get it sorted between 2009 [which was the original date for the introduction IIRC] and now)?

S7s will be able to operate over the Circle Line from 19 May although there will be no scheduled trains at this time.
The infrastructure is being prepared and readied for H&C train diversions at this stage.
Things that have/are being done include:
- moving some existing signals, so better sighted by S7 drivers
- moving platform-end barriers to take the longer trains
- moving existing OPO equipment from the ends of some platforms, so as not to obstruct S7 doors
- installing new OPO camera equipment for S7s, as these have in-cab monitors and do not require platform mounted mirrors/monitors
- installing trackside position detectors in all platforms, vital for SDO operation
- lengthening of berths in various sidings, for stabling/reversing.

Up to 5 S7s have been seen running M-F.

[Deleted]

There were two C stock cars at the north end of Neasden Depot today together with at least two more in the car wash just behind them. Anyone know why? Haven't seen C stock at Neasden for a long time.

[Deleted]

Apr 27, 2013 14:31:55 GMT @dennis said:

There were two C stock cars at the north end of Neasden Depot today together with at least two more in the car wash just behind them. Anyone know why? Haven't seen C stock at Neasden for a long time.

Having their Wheels turned at the Wheel Lathe

[orienteer]

Noticed some S7s in the sidings at Wembley Park today. (I assume not S8s as the sidings aren't long enough?)

[metman]

Correct. Wembley Park sidings have been redeveloped to stable S7 trains. They were too short for S8s.

[domh245]

Has the recent Acton Scrap train been carted away yet? Are there any pictures?

[Deleted]

Someone's on the ball with the list it appears:
districtdave.proboards.com/thread/21140/stock-withdrawals-list

5588/6588, 5528/6528 and part of the first ever C77 train in passenger service in Dec 1977, 5701/6701 have been walked down the green mile.

[rincew1nd]

Apr 29, 2013 21:02:36 GMT @delboy200 said:

Someone's on the ball with the list it appears...

Why do you think District Dave claims to be the premier place for the discussion of not only London Underground, but also the other railways operated by Transport for London!