Timetables & Route Finder

[Deleted]

I remember at the beginning of this year there was discussion on this and other boards about the extreme to which DLR's timetables had been 'simplified'. I agreed with the opinion of, to mention just one, diamondgeezer's that there was now too little information.

With the new year almost upon us it will be interesting to see whether DLR will continue with the "Tube-line-like" timetable format, or come up with a halfway house between that and their previous ones.

A few months ago I dug out my TfL paintbox and came up with this (put together before the various contact icons/pictograms were updated to the rounder, shinier versions that are current now). I sent it to DLR for their delectation but was met with as much interest as Harry Beck received later on in his life:
dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLRTTPoster_201206_BEP.pdf

Incidentally, I went as far as shoehorning in the Fare Zones and interchanges into the "map" for display above the vestibule doors, like so:
dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-H2C.pdf

Really just for those who go over the official "map"!

[Rich32]

Some good work there - I found it very readable and understandable.

[Deleted]

Good - as long as tourists don't think Stratford is south of Bank.

[Deleted]

Do you have one for Prince Regent (i know it's like Beckton Park)

[Deleted]

No, sorry, but I did do Canning Town as an example of a more complex one:

db.tt/qbj87ojZ

Plus I did an example of an Engineering Works poster:

db.tt/uet1Wp6t

That however is a (deliberately) much simplified layout compared to my ideas from last year:

db.tt/xv2fqZEy

I decided it's not mandatory to make sure every square inch of the page is filled. LU closure posters are quite sparse after all.

[brigham]

It all looks too complicated for me. I'm looking at the DLR route diagram, and I'm inclined to think it's become complex enough to warrant route colours.

My 'sort-of-local' suburban electric railway is far simpler, and has had route colours for YONKS.

www.newcastlegateshead.com/xsdbimgs/metro_map.pdf

[Chris M]

The problem with route colours for the DLR is that the routes are far more flexible than on LU. Yes there are typical service patterns, but these can and do get changed at quite short notice to cater for things like events at ExCeL, engineering works and sometimes disruption. Even with the current diagrams it implies that trains cannot run between the south and east at Poplar but there are a few trains that do this every day (although this is analogous to the Watford north curve).

One idea I saw somewhere was to give each terminal and key routing station a letter (e.g. say Bank B, Tower Gateway T, Poplar P, Canary Wharf C, Greenwich G, Lewisham L, Canning Town N, King George V V, Woolwich Arsenal W, Prince Regent P, Gallions Reach R, Beckton B, All Saints A, Bow Curch O, Stratford (via bow) S, Stratford (via West Ham) F, Stratford International I) and call the Bank-Lewisham service line BCL, Tower Gateway to Beckton TPB, Gallions Reach to Greenwich RPG, etc.
That's probably more confusing than what we currently have though!

[Deleted]

Well, if you notice I proposed coloured route arrows for each destination. The destinations/termini are backed in the same colour as the arrows that point the way on the line diagram.

The colours aren't intended to be consistent from station to station (or branch to branch), just different enough to distinguish when looking at the poster at your starting or interchange station.

Who knows though, one day perhaps multicoloured LED destination "blinds" could be installed on the trains, and a coloured arrow displayed next to the destination (which would remain in amber).

[Chris M]

Jan 10, 2013 19:43:19 GMT @creamtfl said:

The colours aren't intended to be consistent from station to station (or branch to branch), just different enough to distinguish when looking at the poster at your starting or interchange station.

I think that's a recipie for confusion to be honest.
A person wants to get from Cutty Sark to London City Airport. They see that they need a yellow service to Poplar and then a blue one to City Airport. They get to Poplar and get a blue service that takes them to Beckton.

[Deleted]

Credit where credit is due creamtfl, your posters and maps are actually very, very good. If not perfect and one I would use on my tube system if I were to ever run one!

Toby

[Deleted]

Well, Kentucky Tony's comment has, unfortunately, been replicated many times by friends I have shown this map to. So, due to overwhelming demand to see Stratford moved up from underneath Bank, and to reduce the chasms between interchange spots at Poplar and Stratford, I unveil this:

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-H2Ds.pdf

EDIT: A little sneaky extra...

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-H2Dx.pdf

[chrisvandenkieboom]

Jan 14, 2013 21:28:52 GMT @creamtfl said:

Well, Kentucky Tony's comment has, unfortunately, been replicated many times by friends I have shown this map to. So, due to overwhelming demand to see Stratford moved up from underneath Bank, and to reduce the chasms between interchange spots at Poplar and Stratford, I unveil this:

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-H2Ds.pdf

I find this one to be even better readable.

[Deleted]

Timetable design updated to include new map:

db.tt/cr1NiDIz

[Deleted]

Canning Town version:

db.tt/n6rGU8uz

[Deleted]

Wow! That looks really good. My only suggestion would be to edit the area around Canning Town, because it doesn't show that trains run from Stratford to Beckton.

[davidp]

Jan 20, 2013 8:31:30 GMT @videomaniac29 said:

Wow! That looks really good. My only suggestion would be to edit the area around Canning Town, because it doesn't show that trains run from Stratford to Beckton.

Actually it does. You may have to zoom in a bit to fully appreciate that but the 'curve' from the Beckton line to the Stratford International line just to the left of Canning Town is there.

I think it just illustrates the point about how difficult it is to make these diagrams both comprehensive and clear. Kudos to creamtfl for his excellent efforts.

[Deleted]

It sure does! I have now modified the square Route Finder to fit in with my design principles (keeping largely to the existing shape because it's currently the most successful piece of DLR information design out of the set):

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-RF2D.pdf

[Deleted]

Now that I've seen the official notification of this weekend's service alterations, I've modified my closure poster to suit. Just to prove that my diagram is flexible enough to be altered for Engineering Works.

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLREWPoster_20130202.pdf

EDIT: Also...

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLREWPoster_20130323.pdf

[Deleted]

I was looking through some old tube leaflets last night and I was reminded that until around 2004, there was another font used on LRT/TfL literature - Bembo. Also there were some other stylistic features of their posters that I think may have been forgotten.

So, just for fun, here is my earlier timetable poster design reworked into "2002 stylee".

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLRTTPoster_201206_BEP_ST2002.pdf

[grahamhewett]

Still difficult to beat Johnson tho'!

Although I think creamtfl's designs are quite brilliant in presenting what is now really a very complex system, it's difficult to escape the conclusion that if this were a freestanding system in an averagely-sized city, it would by now have its own coloured or numbered route diagram.
The same might be said for LOROL, too, these days. Bolting them onto the tube map as a network of undifferentiated coloured lines is pretty confusing for anyone but the initiated. Don't suppose tho' that TfL will do anything bold...

G

[Deep Level]

Jan 14, 2013 21:28:52 GMT @creamtfl said:

Well, Kentucky Tony's comment has, unfortunately, been replicated many times by friends I have shown this map to. So, due to overwhelming demand to see Stratford moved up from underneath Bank, and to reduce the chasms between interchange spots at Poplar and Stratford, I unveil this:

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-H2Ds.pdf

Needs just a little edit as it's only southbound trains from Bank that don't serve WIQ before 19:00 on weekdays.

[Chris M]

Feb 27, 2013 8:15:27 GMT grahamhewett said:

Still difficult to beat Johnson tho'!

Although I think creamtfl's designs are quite brilliant in presenting what is now really a very complex system, it's difficult to escape the conclusion that if this were a freestanding system in an averagely-sized city, it would by now have its own coloured or numbered route diagram.
The same might be said for LOROL, too, these days. Bolting them onto the tube map as a network of undifferentiated coloured lines is pretty confusing for anyone but the initiated. Don't suppose tho' that TfL will do anything bold...

G

Giving LO separately identified routes shouldn't be hard as the only complexity is that the West London Line sometimes acts as a branch of the North London Line and sometimes doesn't.
The DLR as has been said many times is more complicated though as the route pattern is far more flexible. Perhaps each possible route should be numbered and listed with a note that not all services run all the time. Something like

No.	Route
01	Bank - Bekcton
02	Bank - Lewisham
03	Bank - Stratford via Bow Church
04	Bank - Woolwich Arsenal
05	Tower Gateway - Beckton
06	Tower Gateway - Lewisham
07	Tower Gateway - Stratford via Bow Church
08	Tower Gateway - Woolwich Arsenal
09	Stratford - Lewisham via Bow Church
10	Stratford International - Beckton via West Ham
11	Stratford International - Woolwich Arsenal via West Ham
12	Beckton - Lewisham
13	Woolwich Arsenal - Lewisham

Alternatively/Additionally the common short workings (Canning Town, Canary Wharf, Greenwich, Mudchute, Blackwall, Poplar, Prince Regent) could be separately identified, but that's probably getting too complicated

[grahamhewett]

It would be entertaining (but not good for the punters... ) to have some nice Belgian-style SNCV route numbers like 36A barre. The risk with DLR route numbers is that they become eventually quite grotesque like the Bassom system of bus route numbering - 93f anyone? I'm not sure there is any easy answer to the problem, in fact.

GH

[norbitonflyer]

I don't see a problem with giving the normal routes their own identities but alloiwing for out of course diversions from one "line" (or route) to another. the SSLm often do it, as it is not unknown for example to see a High St Ken train at Hammersmith or a Wimbldeon at Baker Street. If necessary potential unusual services can be shown by a dotted line as is done at Kennington or East Finchley, (but not for the Watford north curve). Passengers can use the line diagrams to work out the usual service, but thye destination on the front of the train and the PIDs will tell them the rest.

I grew up in a city where all the bus routes radiated from the city centre but because of the layout of the bus station most buses actually went through the middle, so an inbound No 9 might become an outbound No4 or No12. In practice the drivers would display the outbound route on the inbound leg. Consequently i got used to going home on a No 9 but into town the bus might call itself anything. What mattered was where it was going, niot what line it called itself.

DLR is a little more complicfated because there is no central core through which all trains pass. But it is now too complicated to show as one - the break up of the Met into four separate lines took over 50 years but no-one would want to go back to the 1940s version now. On the D:LR in particular it is diffiocuilt fro tyhe unititiated to work out Stratford - what through services are possible and which require a change? - and Canning Town, where it is not obvious at first glance (even on creamtfl's latest version) that all four permutations are possible. I would number the lines - as it happens this is roughly in order of opening but there is more logic in it than that:

Line 1 Stratford - Lewisham
Line 2 Bank - Lewisham
Line 3 Bank - Woolwich
Line 4 Tower - Beckton
Line 5 Stratford Int - Beckton
Line 6 Startford Int - Woolwich

Note that for ease of recollection services on the same branch, with one exception, have consecutive numbers. The exception is an easy to remember 3/6. Thus Mudchute is on lines 1 and 2, Shadwell on lines 2,3,and 4, etc
Short workings take the same number as the full journey.
Odd workings would take the number of their destination: so a train from Tower to Lewisham would be a "2". In some cases it might be better to "reform" after passing tyhe old delta junction to avoid confusion - e.g a Lewisham to Tower and Lewisham to Beckton could both be a "4" - in the same way a Barking to Wimbledon via Baker Street would confuse people if it were called a District Line train before it reached Aldgate East

[Deleted]

I have appreciated reading and seeing all the efforts on this DLR topic - especially, of course, by creamtfl.

[davidp]

Feb 27, 2013 10:20:06 GMT Deep Level said:

Jan 14, 2013 21:28:52 GMT @creamtfl said:

Well, Kentucky Tony's comment has, unfortunately, been replicated many times by friends I have shown this map to. So, due to overwhelming demand to see Stratford moved up from underneath Bank, and to reduce the chasms between interchange spots at Poplar and Stratford, I unveil this:

dl.dropbox.com/u/51034087/DLR-H2Ds.pdf

Needs just a little edit as it's only southbound trains from Bank that don't serve WIQ before 19:00 on weekdays.

And to be pedantic (who? moi!) since the last minor timetable changes at the end of January, southbound trains from Bank don't stop at WIQ until after 21:00

[davidp]

Feb 27, 2013 11:07:33 GMT Chris M said:

Feb 27, 2013 8:15:27 GMT grahamhewett said:

Still difficult to beat Johnson tho'!

Although I think creamtfl's designs are quite brilliant in presenting what is now really a very complex system, it's difficult to escape the conclusion that if this were a freestanding system in an averagely-sized city, it would by now have its own coloured or numbered route diagram.
The same might be said for LOROL, too, these days. Bolting them onto the tube map as a network of undifferentiated coloured lines is pretty confusing for anyone but the initiated. Don't suppose tho' that TfL will do anything bold...

G

Giving LO separately identified routes shouldn't be hard as the only complexity is that the West London Line sometimes acts as a branch of the North London Line and sometimes doesn't.
The DLR as has been said many times is more complicated though as the route pattern is far more flexible. Perhaps each possible route should be numbered and listed with a note that not all services run all the time. Something like

No.	Route
01	Bank - Bekcton
02	Bank - Lewisham
03	Bank - Stratford via Bow Church
04	Bank - Woolwich Arsenal
05	Tower Gateway - Beckton
06	Tower Gateway - Lewisham
07	Tower Gateway - Stratford via Bow Church
08	Tower Gateway - Woolwich Arsenal
09	Stratford - Lewisham via Bow Church
10	Stratford International - Beckton via West Ham
11	Stratford International - Woolwich Arsenal via West Ham
12	Beckton - Lewisham
13	Woolwich Arsenal - Lewisham

Alternatively/Additionally the common short workings (Canning Town, Canary Wharf, Greenwich, Mudchute, Blackwall, Poplar, Prince Regent) could be separately identified, but that's probably getting too complicated

BTW, The DLR does have it's own internal line numbering --> www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/104512/response/257324/attach/7/Line%20Names.pdf

The ones in regular use are :
14 Bank and Lewisham via West India Quay
15 Bank and Lewisham via Avoiding Line
26 Stratford and Canary Wharf
75 Stratford and Lewisham
123 Tower Gateway and Beckton
136 Bank and Woolwich Arsenal
151 Stratford International and Beckton
154 Stratford International and Woolwich Arsenal

[Chris M]

Very interesting, I didn't know that!

[Deep Level]

Feb 28, 2013 17:01:47 GMT davidp said:

BTW, The DLR does have it's own internal line numbering --> www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/104512/response/257324/attach/7/Line%20Names.pdf

The ones in regular use are :
14 Bank and Lewisham via West India Quay
15 Bank and Lewisham via Avoiding Line
26 Stratford and Canary Wharf
75 Stratford and Lewisham
123 Tower Gateway and Beckton
136 Bank and Woolwich Arsenal
151 Stratford International and Beckton
154 Stratford International and Woolwich Arsenal

Yes I remember these codes, they use these to manually program the LED displays should they need to be.

[djlynch]

I think the answer to how you simplify passenger route-finding the DLR is to break it up into sections at Poplar and Canada Water and prominently advertise what sections a given train is going to pass through on its way to its destination (possibly through something like giving each section a letter, and including those letters on platform and train DMIs.) Then, if there's a train on an unusual route, it's just a matter of advertising the correct combination of sections rather than expecting passengers to know rarely-used route numbers or know the map well enough to know whether a given train will take them to where they're trying to go.