New Cars for the Bakerloo Line (1920)

[Deleted]

I came across this by chance yesterday very interesting.

www.nycsubway.org/wiki/New_Cars_for_the_Bakerloo_Line_%281920%29

XF

[Deleted]

Fantastic find - thank you.

It has links to other London Underground stuff of the time too. (Interesting that the article on the Met locos says they were "reconstructed" rather than built new). Subject for another thread, methinks.

[Ben]

The Motormans' seat looks, err...

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2013 10:39:31 GMT Ben said:

The Motormans' seat looks, err...

Probably the height of luxury in those days ?? ;D ;D

[Phil]

Yes - thanks for that. Adds to current historical documents for us 'historians'.

As per usual, once a good chance has been given for all to have a look over the next week or so, the thread will be moved by a mod to the 'historical' area of the fourm.

[carltona]

It is interesting to read why they fitted hinged doors in the centre of the cars. For some reason they could not produce a curved sliding door and wanted to avoid a step in front of flat doors which could have allowed passengers to surf the train and get killed by the tunnel.

[metman]

I've moved the Met loco discussion to a new thread so please get stuck into that too.

It is interesting because similar cars has also been introduced onto the Bakerloo 1914/15 and Central 1920 with hinged doors. They had electric locks which no doubt slowed down departures. The Bakerloo stock had gates at the end so I would assume train surfing (if it went on then?) could be prevented by the host of gatemen on each car?

[towerman]

Weren't these the stock that made up the old CME training train at White City Depot?

[metman]

No that was the 1920 Cammell Laird stock - the first with air doors. They were used initially on the Piccadilly with converted gate stock motors. They moved to the Bakerloo locals in 1932 and ran with a special batch of UCC standard stock motors.

[towerman]

Used to be fascinating being on that training train,every car had equipment set up from all stock in service at the time (mid 60's)

[metman]

Shame there are not many pictures of the stock

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2013 16:59:14 GMT metman said:

No that was the 1920 Cammell Laird stock - the first with air doors. They were used initially on the Piccadilly with converted gate stock motors. They moved to the Bakerloo locals in 1932 and ran with a special batch of UCC standard stock motors.

Indeed there was a batch of 20 Pre-1938 Stock motors built specifically to replace the Air Door former Gate Stock motor cars. However, I'm not convinced that these were actually used with the Cammell Laird trailers and CTs, or if they were, it wasn't for long. I believe other motor cars were used with them but will check and confirm when I get home tomorrow.

These 20 motor cars of 1928 UCC stock were the first production motor cars not to have a centre door post between the double doors, following an experiment on the main batch on what became car 3304 (which also had vents covered by the clerestory eave - i.e. there were vent scoops on this car).

Watch this space.

[Deleted]

This is a little bit more complicated than I first thought. However:

The 20 French Air Door replacement motor cars all entered service on the Piccadilly between January and May 1930. The 1920 Cammell Laird cars were still on the Piccadilly at that time, so it is possible that these motor cars operated as intended (i.e. with the 1920 Cammell Laird cars), but only for a short period.

Eight replacement motor cars went to the Bakerloo in 1931/32 with all but one being back on the Picc in 1932. After that they never ventured onto the Bakerloo. The lone car on the Bakerloo returned to the Picc in October 1939.

The 1920 Cammell Laird cars went from the Piccadilly to the Bakerloo between January and October 1932.

Therefore, other Pre-1938 Stock motor cars operated with them on the Bakerloo, which is in accordance with the very few photos I have seen of them. These were the earlier 1928 UCC motor cars (the ones with the post between the double doors) and had Westinghouse only brakes, which was the same as the Cammell Laird Stock. These (earlier) 1928 motor cars running with the 1920 Cammell Laird Stock didn't get e.p. brakes until the 1920 Cammell Laird cars were withdrawn (on the Bakerloo) between September 1938 and January 1939.

[phillw48]

20 French gate stock motor cars were converted to air doors to operate with the C-L stock. These were scrapped in 1930 and the C-L stock was transferred to the Bakerloo were they operated with 1927 motor cars. They were withdrawn and stored in 1939 for the duration of the war and were scrapped 1946-1948 except for the 5 cars used for the instruction train.

[metman]

There is a photo of them at Queens Park with an earlier UCC motor car which was not intended to run with the 1920 trailers. That all makes much more sense now.

It is interesting that the CL cars would have gone to the Northern City but were out of gauge!?!

I'm not sure how this would be the case? Were they too wide or too low in places? 1922-1927 stock had run the line from 1939 so one wonders why these cars fitted but the 1920 trailers didn't?

[phillw48]

They appear to have had a distinctive bulge at waist level, perhaps this would cause problems with normal height platforms.

[metman]

Feb 3, 2013 22:50:18 GMT phillw48 said:

20 French gate stock motor cars were converted to air doors to operate with the C-L stock. These were scrapped in 1930 and the C-L stock was transferred to the Bakerloo were they operated with 1927 motor cars. They were withdrawn and stored in 1939 for the duration of the war and were scrapped 1946-1948 except for the 5 cars used for the instruction train.

Did some of the former gate stock cars get converted to ballast motors and shuttle cars for the Aldwych branch?

[Deleted]

Yes.