Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 11:35:10 GMT
With the current contract running nearly 2 years late at a key milestone (ATC system demonstration), LUL and Bombardier have agreed to end it. Expressions of interest for the re-let contract will be sought this week and they're still aiming to get it done within 5 years. www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29299.aspx |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Dec 31, 2013 11:52:59 GMT
I see it has been announced on the last day of 2013 when most people are on their Christmas and New Year holidays including the Mayor of London  |
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Post by domh245 on Dec 31, 2013 12:09:55 GMT
I can only hope that we don't get some god-awful jerky uncomfortable system (cough cough seltrac s40 cough) but a nice smooth system.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Dec 31, 2013 12:32:43 GMT
What I would like to know how much money has been wasted on this fiasco, seeing the original plans for the SSL resignalling were drafted in 2000.
First the Westinghouse Distance to Go-Radio system was dumped , now the Cityflo 650 has been dumped.
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Post by sawb on Dec 31, 2013 12:43:18 GMT
So what does this mean from the point of view of passengers, if anything?
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Post by uzairjubilee on Dec 31, 2013 14:50:15 GMT
So what does this mean from the point of view of passengers, if anything? None |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Dec 31, 2013 14:57:53 GMT
So what does this mean from the point of view of passengers, if anything? None Only that the old kit is getting older and older so will give more delays. Still will get the good service message when ever one who uses the service knows there are delays. Plus more of the fare paying public and the tax payers money has been wasted by the clowns at LUL and Tfl etc. |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 31, 2013 16:16:45 GMT
On the one hand, we have an excellent example of an upgrade that went very well, which is the Victoria line. Then we have this SSL fiasco . . .
it really is an embarrassment that this can happen In a so called world city.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Dec 31, 2013 20:48:04 GMT
Yes the MD of LUL said its a world class metro, when really only 3rd class.
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Post by metrailway on Dec 31, 2013 23:04:50 GMT
They have no chance of making the 2018 deadline now. Us lot on the Met were promised by the TfL bigwigs that once resignalling was finished, the increased frequency would more than make up for the lack of seats on the S Stock. Looks like a pipedream now. Maybe they should have upgraded the infrastructure and signalling first before axing seats!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 0:30:02 GMT
Very interesting development. Would be interested to know more in depth reasoning on the decision, especially as Bombardier's technology was chosen to reduce line closures.
This I think leaves Alstom, Thales, and Siemens (which absorbed Westinghouse/Invensys).
2018 completion is looking very unlikely.
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Post by suncloud on Jan 1, 2014 7:25:13 GMT
how much work has been done on the railway itself? will any of that work be transferable into a new system?
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jan 1, 2014 7:33:04 GMT
I see it has been announced on the last day of 2013 when most people are on their Christmas and New Year holidays including the Mayor of London A breathtaking case of cynicism, trying to bury bad news by putting out the bulletin on New Year's Eve! This is an unmitigated fiasco, but a predictable one. A lot of eyebrows were raised when the contract went to Bombardier. Their bid may have been the lowest, but the risk was an untried (for LUL) system on a huge part of the network. Meanwhile, on the Victoria Line we now have the excellent DTG-R system which is now delivering solid performance on a daily basis. The whole SSR resignalling project has turned into nothing but a disaster, it's been going for over 10 years now and has failed to achieve anything at all on the ground. I would love to know how much the whole affair has cost. Let's hope lessons are learned and when the contract gets awarded for the third time LUL chooses a tried and tested system, and doesn't just go for the cheapest option. It's a pretty safe bet that the resignalling will not be complete by 2018. There is just no way you can choose, design, install and commission a system for such a huge part of the system in 4 to 5 years. Even if DTG-R was resurrected this would be unrealistic to achieve. |
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Post by orienteer on Jan 1, 2014 15:12:28 GMT
Well, one thing to show for it is the new cable support infrastructure on the Uxbridge branch! Of course, the brackets may yet prove to be the wrong size for the cables.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 19:56:40 GMT
If a new system cannot be delivered in a sensible amount of time, it does beg the question, will we see enhancements utilising the current signalling system in the meantime? If the current system will be in use at a time when the SSR capacity will be stretched to its limit, surely we will have to see more feasible and short term improvements with manual signalling and control still in place. Long live the OP cabin at Edgware Road, its probably been on borrowed time for decades now!
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Jan 1, 2014 20:10:00 GMT
Very interesting development. Would be interested to know more in depth reasoning on the decision, especially as Bombardier's technology was chosen to reduce line closures. This I think leaves Alstom, Thales, and Siemens (which absorbed Westinghouse/Invensys). 2018 completion is looking very unlikely. Alstom and Siemens (formerly Westinghouse) are the two big players in the UK Main Line market, the former in Partnership with Balfour Beatty as Signalling Solutions. They don't really have much knowledge of the Mass Transit market, other than (I think) Tyne and Wear Metro. Realistically I think Thales could be in with a good chance, unless someone external like Siemens (the German arm), GE Transportation Systems or Ansaldo come along. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 22:10:49 GMT
I did hear TBTC being rumoured a few weeks ago but like everything just rumours. Bring back semaphore  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 10:51:36 GMT
I did hear TBTC being rumoured a few weeks ago but like everything just rumours. Bring back semaphore TBTC and CBTC are just generic terms for modern transmission based signalling products, and doesn't refer to a particular vendor. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 3, 2014 17:54:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 0:48:34 GMT
I did hear TBTC being rumoured a few weeks ago but like everything just rumours. Bring back semaphore TBTC and CBTC are just generic terms for modern transmission based signalling products, and doesn't refer to a particular vendor. Ok fair comment I'm referring to the Thales system which is curretnly installed on the Jubilee and Northern Lines |
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Post by d7666 on Jan 10, 2014 18:38:19 GMT
Hitachi have a CBTC product; their web site today appears rather lighter on it than last time I looked a couple of years back, or they've shuffled their domains around and the gen is elsewhere. There is also the Chinese Beijing Traffic Control Technology Company, they have a full blown CBTC ATC system with the right boxes ticked for all the ATO ATP ATS elements, the ATP element is named LCF300. Interestingly there is an item on this on Beijing Line 14 in the current IRSE News issued this week. I say do not scoff at suggesting a Chinese system, the Chinese rail industry is edging into Europe, it was released this week they are trying to get in on main line HS2 www.ft.com/cms/s/0/003704a2-7897-11e3-831c-00144feabdc0.htmlIf UK can let them in on nuclear power stations - they are involved with the new Hinkley plant - then railway signalling is possible. I reckon at least they would respond to ITT. -- Nick |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jan 10, 2014 19:19:53 GMT
Hitachi have a CBTC product; their web site today appears rather lighter on it than last time I looked a couple of years back, or they've shuffled their domains around and the gen is elsewhere. There is also the Chinese Beijing Traffic Control Technology Company, they have a full blown CBTC ATC system with the right boxes ticked for all the ATO ATP ATS elements, the ATP element is named LCF300. Interestingly there is an item on this on Beijing Line 14 in the current IRSE News issued this week. I say do not scoff at suggesting a Chinese system, the Chinese rail industry is edging into Europe, it was released this week they are trying to get in on main line HS2 www.ft.com/cms/s/0/003704a2-7897-11e3-831c-00144feabdc0.htmlIf UK can let them in on nuclear power stations - they are involved with the new Hinkley plant - then railway signalling is possible. I reckon at least they would respond to ITT. -- Nick Nick thanks for the information, only bit that foxed me, was "ITT " |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 10, 2014 20:11:16 GMT
Invitation To Tender
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Post by d7666 on Jan 10, 2014 23:10:45 GMT
Indeed. I plead guilty to TMT syndrome. -- Nick |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 13:30:49 GMT
The first stage notice in the EU journal has been published Link to EU JournalSummary: This notice is the first stage of a qualification process for the ATC system supply and will be open to individual companies to register their interest in the pre-qualification process.
The Pre-Qualification Questionnaire will be available from 27th January 2014, and will be issued only once the interested party has signed and returned a Confidentiality Agreement which will be issued with the notice. It is currently envisaged that the Contracting Authority will issue the Invitation to Tender to shortlisted tenderers around Week commencing 10.3.2014, and that a contract will be entered into with the successful tenderer no earlier than June 2014.
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Post by rheostar on Jan 23, 2014 16:16:28 GMT
If I had to put money on it, the Thales system would be my bet.
It's now proven technology.
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Post by domh245 on Jan 23, 2014 20:27:05 GMT
If I had to put money on it, the Thales system would be my bet. It's now proven technology. Whilst what you say is true, North End said in the northern line TBTC thread that Seltrac isn't really suited to complex track layouts, so how on earth it would cope with the complexities of the SSR, I don't know. Indeed are there any modern signalling systems that are suited to the massive complexities of the SSR, or will we eventually end up with the least worst option with various bodges and workarounds to ensure it runs? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 8:48:16 GMT
If I had to put money on it, the Thales system would be my bet. It's now proven technology. Whilst what you say is true, North End said in the northern line TBTC thread that Seltrac isn't really suited to complex track layouts, so how on earth it would cope with the complexities of the SSR, I don't know. Indeed are there any modern signalling systems that are suited to the massive complexities of the SSR, or will we eventually end up with the least worst option with various bodges and workarounds to ensure it runs? The DLR junction at Poplar is very complex and that has run successfully for many years using Seltrac. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 13:36:18 GMT
Taking ATO/ATC etc out of the equation, just how much more efficient would a new signalling system be? I'm only curious as when I've missed a train at say Baker St and counted the seconds between the signal turning from red to green, it seems pretty quick! I wondered how much quicker a new system could be and whether its worth all these millions!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2014 19:42:56 GMT
If you take out the automatic train control out then the current system is ok not ideal in some places but it is sufficient. In fact in the 60's and 70's especially on the District the signalling could run easier 40tph but that was with more signals I.e Axxxa,b,c,d,e,f,g,h home signals and a lot of speed inductors (speed checks for trains). But like everything else the world moves on and technology also improves.
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