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Post by spsmiler on Jun 3, 2023 20:30:03 GMT
TFW going g to be swapping units on the Wrexham to Bidston line half way through the day due to a problem with pollen clogging the generators. whaat? Pollen? sigh! I suppose though that this makes a change from 'the wrong kind of snow' which years ago affected a brand new type of main line train. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 3, 2023 20:52:11 GMT
TFW going g to be swapping units on the Wrexham to Bidston line half way through the day due to a problem with pollen clogging the generators. In other words they're suffering from hayfever |
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Post by alpinejohn on Jul 4, 2023 8:43:15 GMT
Probably best to move on from Hayfever.
I came across this recent video regarding the GWR battery train trial on the Greenford-West Ealing service. Most of this is already well known, but they do have a bit of video showing the Fast Charging shoe system lowering to pick up power and mentions that once the charging system and related shore battery power bank and trickle charge system is approved by Network Rail, GWR hope Network Rail will install the charging kit at West Ealing by the end of 2023 allowing the single unit 230001 to potentially enter passenger use on the line early in 2024.
Other new stuff is confirmation that the former Vivarail staff and servicing is planned at Reading depot. So it seems a further charging facility(or some other way of top up charging) will probably need to be provided at Reading given the video mentions that the one way trip from West Ealing to Reading will drain roughly half of the battery capacity. So without charging at Reading it risks potentially see the unit fail or arrive virtually out of power when returning to West Ealing to resume service.
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Post by brigham on Jul 5, 2023 7:33:28 GMT
Or you could haul it to West Ealing ready for the day's service.
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Post by pgb on Jul 5, 2023 21:22:07 GMT
Or you could haul it to West Ealing ready for the day's service. Wouldn't that require a unit with a similar coupling etc to do the work? Can't see that being readily available? |
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Post by brigham on Jul 6, 2023 7:13:34 GMT
Thinking about it, no; I can't see such flexibility being available. The idea of being able to deliver a rail vehicle from one point on the network to another, by rail, is simply ludicrous.
Perhaps today's usual method, road transport, would be more feasible.
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Post by anthony262 on Jul 11, 2023 12:54:00 GMT
At least 2 D stock carriages have arrived at Barry Island. They are due to be converted to a cafe.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 11, 2023 14:19:16 GMT
Hopefully serving the same strength tea as when we worked them in 1980!
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Post by bigvern on Jul 11, 2023 15:02:50 GMT
Saw Alleleys Lorry en route to Bletchley Depot yesterday afternoon possibly to pick up one of the LNWR Class 230 vehilces, maybe to transport to Reading if GWR have obtained them?
Update - 1 Car of unit 230003 - Car 300003 is now at Reading Depot, all others are expected to be at Reading by Thursday/Friday photo of delivery of Car 300003 to Reading on UKRail Forums.
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Post by melikepie on Jul 17, 2023 11:11:02 GMT
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Post by melikepie on Jul 17, 2023 11:11:49 GMT
Whoops, 1 month too late
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Post by pgb on Jul 17, 2023 11:20:43 GMT
Although a month late, the dandelion type fluff has been an issue in North Wales for several years. Certainly after the 158s were given a new set of radiators / maintenance about 15 years ago, everything stopped on the Cambrian when it got warm because they got covered in fluff. At the end of May, the NG/G16 I was on looked more like a chicken below the solebar than a steam engine as it was covered in fluff! |
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Post by neutron on Sept 13, 2023 17:11:11 GMT
The conductor type rails have been installed at West Ealing  |
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Post by d7666 on Oct 25, 2023 20:03:49 GMT
According to a usually well informed source posting on WNXX (and duly acknowledged) - expect train testing on the Greenford branch in second week in January *** - preceded in December*** by some main line testing along the Oxford / Worcester line *** means 12/23 and 01/24 before some joker enquires "which year"  |
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Post by d7666 on Nov 15, 2023 21:11:12 GMT
The December issue of Todays Railways (acknowledged) has some tekkie gen on the Greenford battery trial apparently from an I.Mech.E. paper***. I'm not going to type out oodles of text from it, but one of two directly relevant snippets :
- Based on 5 miles Greenford / West Ealing trip, a round trip consumes 40 kWh = 10% battery charge,and needs 94 sec recharge time to recover; the same electrical data is given for Slough Windsor although 6 miles but less stops.
- Apparently the charging stations are themselves batteries, so a static trackside battery is charged off the grid, that then rapid charges the train batteries; the trickle charge to the trackside battery is is 63 A.
I'm sceptical about some of the efficiency claims made elsewhere about fast charging, as charging a battery off a battery is not efficient and I bet they only refer to the last step. Discuss.
*** that I missed; I usually make a point fo going to these Learnëd Society papers
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Post by brigham on Nov 16, 2023 8:46:40 GMT
Efficiency aside, the 'fixed' battery will be fine on charging, but deteriorate rapidly with each fast discharge.
Presumably this will only be for the trial period, after which a proper DC supply will be provided.
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Post by d7666 on Nov 16, 2023 8:52:05 GMT
Efficiency aside, the 'fixed' battery will be fine on charging, . sorry no, no process is fully efficient energy is always lost in any. stage, so, charging a battery than that to charge another battery MUST always be less energy efficient than charging the train directly |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 16, 2023 11:47:59 GMT
Brigham explicitly said "efficiency aside" so they were not disputing that energy is lost.
As I understand it the reason for the two battery solution is to allow trickle charging from the grid but allow very fast charging of the train's batteries - effectively acting as a buffer to protect the grid from spikes. The battery in the charging station will be designed specifically so that it will not rapidly deteriorate when discharging to the train (anything else will be pointless).
While charging two batteries is less efficient than charging one battery directly, this is not the whole story as the question is whether the whole system sufficiently efficient that it is both better for the environment and better value for money than fossil fuel, hydrogen or other battery-electric or OLE solutions. Upgrading the grid to cope with the massive spikes induced without a battery buffer between the grid and train would (presumably) be more efficient than having the buffer, the buffer is (presumably) calculated to be sufficiently cheaper that is outweighs the loss of efficiency.
Given that the purpose of the trial is to find what the answers to these questions are in practice, passing judgement now (on efficiency or value for money) is premature.
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Post by Chris L on Nov 16, 2023 12:12:50 GMT
The December issue of Todays Railways (acknowledged) has some tekkie gen on the Greenford battery trial apparently from an I.Mech.E. paper***. I'm not going to type out oodles of text from it, but one of two directly relevant snippets : - Based on 5 miles Greenford / West Ealing trip, a round trip consumes 40 kWh = 10% battery charge,and needs 94 sec recharge time to recover; the same electrical data is given for Slough Windsor although 6 miles but less stops. - Apparently the charging stations are themselves batteries, so a static trackside battery is charged off the grid, that then rapid charges the train batteries; the trickle charge to the trackside battery is is 63 A. I'm sceptical about some of the efficiency claims made elsewhere about fast charging, as charging a battery off a battery is not efficient and I bet they only refer to the last step. Discuss. *** that I missed; I usually make a point fo going to these Learnëd Society papers The Caetano battery buses at Walworth garage are maintained under contract whereby the batteries on the buses are swapped out when they lose efficiency. The batteries removed go into the charging units at the garage. |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 16, 2023 13:14:10 GMT
capacitors are better for fast discharge, I wish that these were at least tried here (as part of a process of discovery of best practise)
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Post by croxleyn on Nov 16, 2023 17:30:14 GMT
Capacitors are great regarding charge/discharge efficiency. However, their storage capacity is orders of magnitude lower then a chemical battery, size for size. The capacitor holds its energy by withstanding a physical stress between the plates. Yes, supercapacitors are available, but the current handling capability, as well as working voltage is greatly reduced.
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Post by d7666 on Dec 31, 2023 22:14:50 GMT
According to a usually well informed source posting on WNXX (and duly acknowledged) - expect train testing on the Greenford branch in second week in January *** Update; same source posted third week in Jan now, so, 3 weeks to go?   |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 4, 2024 12:06:25 GMT
I was reading about the Class 230s in Wales.
Not happy reading.
Things are not going well - out of five units only one is available for use (today) but it cannot be allowed out because if it fails there will be nothing that can rescue it.
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Post by pgb on Jan 5, 2024 9:58:16 GMT
I was reading about the Class 230s in Wales. Not happy reading. Things are not going well - out of five units only one is available for use (today) but it cannot be allowed out because if it fails there will be nothing that can rescue it. Last time I travelled on one in December, the crew were very pleased with themselves as they were making up time. The trains themselves seem comfy and well received with passengers. Wrexham / Bidston as always run late because it was too tight which they've now resolved with a 45 minute timetable rather than the hour. The only slight weird thing is listening to one coming down Harwarden Bank in to Shotton. If you close your eyes...you could be in London! |
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Post by ted672 on Jan 5, 2024 11:26:05 GMT
It really is a shame that there have been so many problems with these trains, the concept was truly inspirational. I can't help wondering, though, how their failure rate compares with other "new concept" trains such as the PEPs on Southern.
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Post by brigham on Jan 6, 2024 9:06:05 GMT
Always difficult trying to get back in the game, after so many generations of skills have been thrown away.
It can be done. Triumph motorcycles are back!
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Post by Chris L on Jan 6, 2024 12:36:17 GMT
Always difficult trying to get back in the game, after so many generations of skills have been thrown away. It can be done. Triumph motorcycles are back! Under Adrian Shooter the team included several ex LUL engineers. The loss of the guiding light must have has an impact. I'm not sure if any transferred to GWR. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Jan 8, 2024 13:08:17 GMT
I am not sure the availability of input from ex LUL engineering staff is a very material concern for GWR.
The Greenford (DFT) test is really about proving that the fast charging concept and kit as devised by Vivarail is sufficiently safe and reliable to consider its wider application. That wider application may or may not involve Class 230/ex D Stock units.
Yes GWR got handed a heap of D78 stock thrown in as part of the deal to purchase the intellectual property rights. But be clear at this stage it is those intellectual rights which are primarily of value along with the 230001 battery prototype unit which they hope will serve as a suitable test mule and iron out any residual issues with the concept.
At the moment the ex Marston Vale kit and the masses of other unconverted D78 rolling stock which came as part of the deal might have a range of potential outcomes. Whilst the trial is ongoing I suspect it makes sense to retain them all if only to act as minimal cost parts suppliers(Christmas trees) in order to keep 230001 running right through the trial period.
However given their wholesale value as scrap and the ongoing security and storage costs I fear scrapping must be a fairly high probability outcome for most of that kit.
Whether any further D78-Class 230 variants are created is really all down to money and reliability.
Certainly the fossil fueled Class 230 variants (TFW & Marston Vale) have not covered themselves in glory. However again and again it appeared weaknesses with the fossil fuel kit was the primary reason the units failed. When they worked as intended the passenger experience was generally well received.
So if the Greenford trial goes well then I suspect there is a reasonable chance that modifying the Marston Vale units to a similar spec battery powered unit would be relatively cheap and potentially offer a far quicker entry into service date. Given the current shortages of GWR rolling stock this might offer a way to quickly augment their local services fleet and move to zero emissions.
For now - it seems that all is not lost on those units.
As for the rest - even with GWR having access to a source of free raw materials the cost of further D78 - Class 230 battery units is going to be a fairly large chunk of entirely new build battery units (quite probably using some or all of the fast charging tech being trialled at Greenford) but most importantly offering much longer life expectancy.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 9, 2024 6:46:48 GMT
It really is a shame that there have been so many problems with these trains, the concept was truly inspirational. I can't help wondering, though, how their failure rate compares with other "new concept" trains such as the PEPs on Southern. But Pep DID prove the base concept; had they not there would been no 313s for Moorgate no 314s for Argyle line and no 507s for Mersey to name the three key - underground - lines that first drove the production demand for this type of stock. No prototyping is ever perfect - which is exactly the reason TO prototype. It applies to drastic rebuilds as much as new builds. The straight electric 484s seem to work large!y out of the box, the battery 230 is delayed so no-one can refer to failure rates; it is the diesel 230s that have been a problem and covid did not help. IMHO LNW never wanted the things in the first place - not even sure they want the Marston Va!e (or StAlbans) line they are non standard thorns in their otherwise standard operation . VivaRail going bust gave them a perfect get out, using whatever reason they wanted. September last year I got a trip round Birkenhead North EMU depot nominally as pArt of a 508 and 507 trip; all the 230s were on shed, their two passenger turns were one cancelled the other bus; I can't repeat what was said about them as the content contained colourful new expressions I had not heard before............ |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 9, 2024 14:59:18 GMT
LOL, well they could not question the parentage of the trains, as that *is* known!
I wonder whether the fine choice of words was also in response to a suggestion that these trains extend their sphere of operation to include Merseyrail tunnels, whilst travelling 484 mode?
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