Elephant Sidings

[Deleted]

I noticed in the new Bakerloo timetable (WTT 40), due for introduction on the 17th, that:

Trains will no longer stable in Elephant & Castle Sidings. One additional train will stable at London Road and one additional train will stable at Queen's Park.

Whyever is that?

[programmes1]

This might be the reason on page 2.

RMT

[Deleted]

Good find, yes, I think that would make a lot of sense.

[Deleted]

Yep, no 252 train as a result now with the new WTT40. I don't know of one single Driver that is unhappy about this change - should have happened years ago! The change though still only applies to a ban on 'scheduling' no trains to stable in the sidings. In an 'emergency' they can still be used, though, as with training a Trainee on the move (which still takes place), it would be the case that the juice was taken out before exiting the sidings when previously only Key Protection systems would apply.

[Chris M]

How far up the line does the power section for the sidings extend?

[cdp75]

Elephant & Castle - Embankment

For Reference the rest :-

Embankment - Oxford Circus
Oxford Circus - Baker Street
Baker Street - Kilburn Park
Kilburn Park - Queen's Park

[Deleted]

If a train was forced to be stabled down the sidings overnight now, an adjustment to the time of the first book-on at the Elephant now covers it. What was previously a 05.18 is now a 04.45 to ensure that the Driver can get down there before Switching On time.

[North End]

May 8, 2015 10:20:04 GMT @millwall01 said:

Yep, no 252 train as a result now with the new WTT40. I don't know of one single Driver that is unhappy about this change - should have happened years ago! The change though still only applies to a ban on 'scheduling' no trains to stable in the sidings. In an 'emergency' they can still be used, though, as with training a Trainee on the move (which still takes place), it would be the case that the juice was taken out before exiting the sidings when previously only Key Protection systems would apply.

I'm not familiar with the current state of Elephant & Caste sidings. However, I can see no good reason why traction current needs to be switched off as a matter of routine when picking up a train from a siding. I've accessed trains stabled in Kennington and Tooting Broadway sidings on numerous occasions, and unless carrying heavy equipment I feel perfectly comfortable doing it with traction current live. Neither of these locations have a walkway at all, so I find it hard to see the facilities at Elephant & Castle can be worse. The ORR's involvement came after a complaint following a train being accessed in this manner at Kennington, there was no 'incident', just someone afterwards complained to the ORR that they felt it unsatisfactory that traction current was not switched off 'as a matter of routine'.

It is common practice for staff to enter and leave trains via the 'M' door in a tunnel. Technical staff and operating officials do it on a regular basis, for example when inspecting or repairing trackside equipment, or being dropped off at a location where something needs inspecting. I don't see why a tunnel siding is any different.

My view is that it should be up to the staff on site in requesting whatever protection measures they feel they require for a given task.

[Deleted]

You said it yourself, you are 'not familiar with the current state of Elephant & Castle sidings'. I, and other Bakerloo Drivers are, and see this as a sensible, preventative measure before someone electrocutes themselves tripping over wiring that is not pinned down properly or where lighting is constantly failing.

[North End]

May 9, 2015 14:29:47 GMT @millwall01 said:

You said it yourself, you are 'not familiar with the current state of Elephant & Castle sidings'. I, and other Bakerloo Drivers are, and see this as a sensible, preventative measure before someone electrocutes themselves tripping over wiring that is not pinned down properly or where lighting is constantly failing.

If there are specific hazards at this particular location then they should be addressed, which is a better approach than bringing in what appears to be a blanket ban on boarding/leaving trains via the M door. I haven't seen the actual wording from the ORR, but where I am it has been interpreted that staff must not enter or leave a train via the M door when traction current is switched on, unless there is a designated walkboard.

Is there any particular reason why Elephant & Castle has deteriorated to the point where staff now find it unsafe? Has something changed, or has it always been an issue?

[Deleted]

It has always been far, far from ideal but of the last couple of years concerns raised have either had lip-service responses or 'fixes' that have only lasted weeks. Time for the firm to be made to grasp the nettle and do a thorough job down there.

[Tom]

It's been about ten years since I last worked at Elephant, but there was a proper boarded walking route in those days, and there were far worse places in terms of lighting.
When did things get so bad?

[Deleted]

Last couple of years have not been good. The walkboard from the steps down to the points has always been acceptable but the the route from there (to the Southbound siding in particular) where there's a lot more criss-cross walking required really needs sorting out. While they're at it they can sort out the 'secure' access from ground level too so that Stonebridge Depot don't have to deal with as many 'repainted' trains!!!

[North End]

May 9, 2015 15:21:25 GMT @millwall01 said:

It has always been far, far from ideal but of the last couple of years concerns raised have either had lip-service responses or 'fixes' that have only lasted weeks. Time for the firm to be made to grasp the nettle and do a thorough job down there.

Agree that the situation at Elephant needs to be addressed.

What I don't like is the feeling that a local issue has resulted in a blanket, network-wide, instruction going out. Maybe I'm being cynical and the two aren't related, but reading the RMT material I get the impression they are trying to link the two. I object to the RMT trying to influence whether I need traction current on or off to undertake an action I have safely carried out many times in the past.

[Tom]

Weren't there also some issues relating to Stabling and walking routes at Parsons Green?

[metman]

May 9, 2015 14:55:05 GMT North End said:

May 9, 2015 14:29:47 GMT @millwall01 said:

You said it yourself, you are 'not familiar with the current state of Elephant & Castle sidings'. I, and other Bakerloo Drivers are, and see this as a sensible, preventative measure before someone electrocutes themselves tripping over wiring that is not pinned down properly or where lighting is constantly failing.

If there are specific hazards at this particular location then they should be addressed, which is a better approach than bringing in what appears to be a blanket ban on boarding/leaving trains via the M door. I haven't seen the actual wording from the ORR, but where I am it has been interpreted that staff must not enter or leave a train via the M door when traction current is switched on, unless there is a designated walkboard.

Is there any particular reason why Elephant & Castle has deteriorated to the point where staff now find it unsafe? Has something changed, or has it always been an issue?

How would an operator get into the cab of a 72ts if not through the M door? Does the second butterfly cock on the motor cars open the former guards door?

[Dstock7080]

May 24, 2015 22:30:07 GMT Tom said:

Weren't there also some issues relating to Stabling and walking routes at Parsons Green?

For most of March the east sidings were blacked by train staff until facilities and security were improved. Trains were stabled at other locations until resolved.

[Deleted]

May 25, 2015 5:59:38 GMT metman said:

May 9, 2015 14:55:05 GMT North End said:

If there are specific hazards at this particular location then they should be addressed, which is a better approach than bringing in what appears to be a blanket ban on boarding/leaving trains via the M door. I haven't seen the actual wording from the ORR, but where I am it has been interpreted that staff must not enter or leave a train via the M door when traction current is switched on, unless there is a designated walkboard.

Is there any particular reason why Elephant & Castle has deteriorated to the point where staff now find it unsafe? Has something changed, or has it always been an issue?

How would an operator get into the cab of a 72ts if not through the M door? Does the second butterfly cock on the motor cars open the former guards door?

Yes metman, you are right. The second cock is operated with the selector key. The rebate for the key is set at an angle so there is no protuberance from the train.