Parsons Green Sidings - Historical Info

[Deleted]

Whilst at the LT Museum Bookshop I ran across an absolute gem - "LONDON TRANSPORT RAILWAY SIGNALLING", ISBN 0-9507416-5-5, which contains a lot of stuff dealing with Robert Dell and his inestimable contribution to LT signalling.

On Page 17 there is a diagram of Parsons Green Sidings, West and East, showing the layout at the time of the commissioning of the programme machines and how the control panel trainopd78 found was created (basically Dell invented it because the coupling crews whinged about 'hand-coupling').

The best part is that this diagram answers a long-held request from District Dave - it shows No. 26 Siding and No. 30 Siding!

No. 30 Siding was accessed via 24a points, crossing single slip 28b. WF32 provided the route from No. 23 Siding, while WF33 provided the route from No. 24 Siding. No. 26 siding was accessed from No. 25 Siding; it was only 196 feet long and could be entered via WF35 and 14 points, and exited via WF11 and 14 points.

I can provide an ASCII signalling diagram if anyone wants one...

[trainopd78]

Yes plase, it would be interesting to see the layout. I'm certain there was a hell of a lot more there prior to that because the shed adjacent to 27 road must have required some sort of access in times past.

[Deleted]

the signalling there has never been changed in any way since they ceased to couple up trains there you can still clear signals into trains and sidings and this was a bit odd when i first done a test out there (check all routes) the only 2 signals that do not work anymore are WF 8 , and the calling on signal WF 37 i think cant remember off top of my head. all the wiring and the equipment is still in place for these signals to work but the lever is plated so the signals would never clear however they are still maintained and mechically still work.
on the diagram which is show here
aetearlscourt.fotopic.net/p15538933.html
on 27 road for the ones that know the area or for the ones that don't its at the top right hand corner of the diagram you can see a cover blanking off the connection to the building next to 27 road i dont know if it still there but there used to be a road sign saying PARSONS GREEN DEPOT with a arrow pointing to the building i once spoke to a bloke at earls court who said that he remembers the building in use for repairing UTS gates and the ticket machines he dont remember it as a train depot but it must of been due to the sheer size of the building in length
the programme machines and shunters panel has not worked now for many years i have been on the line since 1996 and it has never worked since i started we still got some spares at earls court for the panel but he machines are dead and always in FCFS (first come first serve) except when using the sidings when the machines have to be in PB (push button)

[Deleted]

216.55.161.203/theonekea/underground/diagrams/parsons-green.txt

Apologies - Parsons Green does NOT lend itself to ready ASCIIification.......

[DWS]

The large building near 27 Road at Parsons Green was not used for trains but was a depot for the Civil Engineer's Works and Building Department.

Back in the 1960's London Transport had a large workforce all direct labour, in the Civil Engineering Department.

[trainopd78]

It was also LT's concrete works for a time too.

I'm wondering who built it though. Judging by the length of it, i reckon it was built as a small depot for maintenance by the DR possibly finding various uses by the UERL and LT in later life? Probably completely wrong though. ;D

Thanks for the diag.

[q8]

I vaguely recall someone saying it was some sort of garage in years past.

[Harsig]

theonekea said:

216.55.161.203/theonekea/underground/diagrams/parsons-green.txt

Apologies - Parsons Green does NOT lend itself to ready ASCIIification.......

Try this version, redrawn from the same source. It might be slightly clearer.

[q8]

Or these >

[Deleted]

harsig said:

theonekea said:

216.55.161.203/theonekea/underground/diagrams/parsons-green.txt

Apologies - Parsons Green does NOT lend itself to ready ASCIIification.......

Try this version, redrawn from the same source. It might be slightly clearer.

That is infinitely better than anything I could produce. Thanks Harsig (I had a feeling you already owned this book ;D ;D ;D )

[russe]

This is a not particularly good scan of part of a Lens of Sutton picture, showing the transition from semaphore to colour-light signals, the former still in operation and the latter's running line head having a wooden cross fixed across its hoods denoting it is not yet in use.

Comparison with Harsig's diagram is interesting. In the picture, the running line signal is denoted WF38^A, and the ringed arm shunt signal, for siding 25 via crossover 25, is WF38^B. Adjacent to the supporting post is a colour-light stack, seemingly using tube-tunnel-size heads and hoods. These are also labelled WF38^A and WF38^B respectively - see detail pic below. I assume these are therefore colocated repeaters. WF38^B would seem to be the progenitor of what was to become WF34.

These repeaters, and the main head on the gantry, all have pigs ears, btw.

Immediately below the stack is what appears to be a rotating disc shunt signal whose face has been painted or covered over - does this denote the disc is about to come into use, or is soon to come out of use?



The notice on the gantry reads "6 car trains from 1 or 2 sidings must draw well up to these signals".

I am surprised that a cantilever gantry carrying such weight over such a span can be supported by a single diagonal strut and a small diameter main post. The structure does look rather precarious. It's difficult to generalise I know, but for how long would colour-lights be kept on these old semaphore gantries before being replaced by more modern posts and fittings? (I guess the process was an 'as and when' one?)

And what is the function of the grey box on top of the gantry at the lefthand end - an air pipe connection box of some sort?

The name of the photographer is unknown to me. The picture can however be dated reasonably accurately I think. In the left background, a billboard displays an advert (more of it is visible in the original print) for a film "South of Algiers". This was released in UK cinemas in 1953 (although one source says 1952), so I believe the picture to be contemporaneous, and could probably be dated within a month of that film's release. In any event, the picture is prior to November 1953, which is the date usually given for the removal of the last semaphores.

Russ

P.S. Apropos the semaphores, how quickly did they move 'off' and 'on'? A 1 second movement? 2 seconds?

P.P.S. If anyone has any drawings of District semaphore arms or signals, I would be delighted to see them.


Edit: Some of the above has been rewritten, because my original version wasn't very logical, and even now I'm far from convinced that I understand all the elements of the picture. I don't understand why the small repeaters, if that is what they are, should be located where they are, and they don't seem to be particularly visible in terms of 'line of sight'.

Another edit: Having thought and studied a little more, I'm no longer convinced the signal is a cantilever gantry, and I now reckon the main girder extends over the westbound track and is supported on that side as well, even though the walkboards and handrails do not themselves extend that far. The structure is definitely too flimsy to stand as a cantilever. Also, there is a pipe (air, I assume) extending off on the righthand side. I get the impression from Harsig's signalling diagrams that the platforms at Parson's Green were/are slightly staggered, so the other-side support for the gantry could have come down onto the westbound platform itself.

[q8]

The answers to Russ's questions that I know are in red
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This is a not particularly good scan of part of a Lens of Sutton picture, showing the transition from semaphore to colour-light signals, the former still in operation and the latter's running line head having a wooden cross fixed across its hoods denoting it is not yet in use.

Comparison with Harsig's diagram is interesting. In the picture, the running line signal is denoted WF38^A, and the ringed arm shunt signal, for siding 25 via crossover 25, is WF38^B. Adjacent to the supporting post is a colour-light stack, seemingly using tube-tunnel-size heads and hoods. These are also labelled WF38^A and WF38^B respectively - see detail pic below. I assume these are therefore colocated repeaters. WF38^B would seem to be the progenitor of what was to become WF34. Tunnel size was because of lack of space at the location. They did[and do] sometimes fix the support directly ot the parapet brickwork.

These repeaters, and the main head on the gantry, all have pigs ears, btw.

Immediately below the stack is what appears to be a rotating disc shunt signal whose face has been painted or covered over - does this denote the disc is about to come into use, or is soon to come out of use? This is just the base for the disk. The disk itself has not yet been fitted.


The notice on the gantry reads "6 car trains from 1 or 2 sidings must draw well up to these signals".

I am surprised that a cantilever gantry carrying such weight over such a span can be supported by a single diagonal strut and a small diameter main post. The structure does look rather precarious. It's difficult to generalise I know, but for how long would colour-lights be kept on these old semaphore gantries before being replaced by more modern posts and fittings? (I guess the process was an 'as and when' one?)

And what is the function of the grey box on top of the gantry at the lefthand end - an air pipe connection box of some sort? The grey box is either the signal relay box or to work the semaphore arms themselves as they were air controlled in the same way as a trainstop arm

The name of the photographer is unknown to me. The picture can however be dated reasonably accurately I think. In the left background, a billboard displays an advert (more of it is visible in the original print) for a film "South of Algiers". This was released in UK cinemas in 1953 (although one source says 1952), so I believe the picture to be contemporaneous, and could probably be dated within a month of that film's release. In any event, the picture is prior to November 1953, which is the date usually given for the removal of the last semaphores.

Russ

P.S. Apropos the semaphores, how quickly did they move 'off' and 'on'? A 1 second movement? 2 seconds? Having seen some old film from donkeys years back I would say that the arm took about 5 second for full travel. Not all the semaphores had electric lamps by the way. Some were "oil lit electrically proved"

P.P.S. If anyone has any drawings of District semaphore arms or signals, I would be delighted to see them.


Edit: Some of the above has been rewritten, because my original version wasn't very logical, and even now I'm far from convinced that I understand all the elements of the picture. I don't understand why the small repeaters, if that is what they are, should be located where they are, and they don't seem to be particularly visible in terms of 'line of sight'.

Another edit: Having thought and studied a little more, I'm no longer convinced the signal is a cantilever gantry, and I now reckon the main girder extends over the westbound track and is supported on that side as well, even though the walkboards and handrails do not themselves extend that far. The structure is definitely too flimsy to stand as a cantilever. Also, there is a pipe (air, I assume) extending off on the righthand side. I get the impression from Harsig's signalling diagrams that the platforms at Parson's Green were/are slightly staggered, so the other-side support for the gantry could have come down onto the westbound platform itself. I do remember seeing a structure like that there in the sixties. It was indeed a bridge and not a cantilever and the other support was in the centre of the westbound platform

[q8]

[russe]

q8 said:

This is just the base for the disk. The disk itself has not yet been fitted.

Ah, I see. I hadn't considered that possibility.

The grey box is either the signal relay box or to work the semaphore arms themselves as they were air controlled in the same way as a trainstop arm

Yes, probably part of the electrical circuitry that proves what position the boards are in.

Having seen some old film from donkeys years back I would say that the arm took about 5 second for full travel.

As slow as that? Isn't that difficult to achieve pneumatically unless there is some gearing (rack and pinion?) off the Westinghouse cylinder?

Many thanks for the Baron's Court semaphore pic. I now know what the old District finial style is.

Russ

[q8]

I think the air operated semaphores were slow as they probably had a large bore pipe air main to operate them as do some trainstops now. As you know large bore pipes lower pressure so that accounts for the slow operation

[motormanmet]

Odd pic, as the replacement for WF38A seems to be the 2-aspect colour light on the gantry, but what is the stack of colour lights on the left for, perhaps as said, a co-actor? They seem to have been in use.

Regarding information on semaphores, check out a book published at www.tubefacts.com - book is LU signalling history pt 1 1900-33. Have seen a copy and can say that all you would need to know about semaphores and practically everything else signalling would be there - i was surprised by the cabin codes used in the early days, filled a few blank spaces in the lists!