Separate Route Identities

[stapler]

I seem to remember it took 20 years to get the NLL onto the tube map, so let's not turn the clock back!

[norbitonflyer]

The Tube map should show all services in the area it covers that people might find useful, regardless of whether it's called "Underground", "Overground", or HS1.

Omitting the NLL would be as silly as omitting Thameslink or the Northern City Line - oh, wait.

No, what is needed is a comprehensive "London Connections" map showing the entire suburban area (out to Sevenoaks and Amersham) and an equally comprehensive central area map showing all reasonably frequent services in Zones 1 and 2 - including e.g Thameslink, and Waterloo/Victoria to Clapham Junction.

This is how Paris does it - a central area map showing RER and Metro within the central area, and a smaller scale map showing the full RER and the outer reaches of the Metro. But then SNCF and RATP see each other as partners, not rivals.

Is there really any logic in giving greater prominence to the infrequent services to Emerson Park or Chesham than the very frequent services that whisk you from London Bridge to the tourist attractions at Greenwich in eight minutes? (TfL reckons it takes longer than that simply to change from Jubilee to DLR at Canary Wharf if you follow the route suggested by the Tube map)

[Deleted]

I think the London Reconnections map will be the tube map by the time of South London metro services are taken over (not literaly, but nearly all line would show!) But having the Overground on their did probally lead up to their success, so best to leave it on there, but I wouldn't know how they'll show the separate route identitys?

[patrickb]

The current 'Beck' design will be inadequate for the future additions of London Overground and Crossrail. A map needs to be clear and easy to interpret which is why redesigning it is a good idea.
I mentioned already that one of the new unofficial designs which includes 30 and 60 Degree Lines would be perfect for including all London Rail Services. Because very few railway services will be left out of the Overground Conversion, you could also get away with adding them (I believe they will be mostly mainline services out of various major railway Termini. By doing this, you wouldn't need a 'London Rail' Map and have as norbitonflyer said, a 'London Connections' from TfL.
Though for the sake of continuity, Harry Beck's Design could still be used with LU only, it would still be particularly useful for Tourists in the West End, very few of them would need Crossrail or London Overground, more would in the East End for places like Greenwich and Stratford.

[theblackferret]

Jan 26, 2016 21:12:00 GMT patrickb said:

The current 'Beck' design will be inadequate for the future additions of London Overground and Crossrail. A map needs to be clear and easy to interpret which is why redesigning it is a good idea.
I mentioned already that one of the new unofficial designs which includes 30 and 60 Degree Lines would be perfect for including all London Rail Services. Because very few railway services will be left out of the Overground Conversion, you could also get away with adding them (I believe they will be mostly mainline services out of various major railway Termini. By doing this, you wouldn't need a 'London Rail' Map and have as norbitonflyer said, a 'London Connections' from TfL.
Though for the sake of continuity, Harry Beck's Design could still be used with LU only, it would still be particularly useful for Tourists in the West End, very few of them would need Crossrail or London Overground, more would in the East End for places like Greenwich and Stratford.

Crossrail in itself won't be a problem for Beck's map, but I agree once LO starts swallowing other lines, the problems begin.

What I'd really like to see is a four-page fold-out booklet so, say page 2 forms the Tube map, pages 3 the rest map. That means they'd be next to each other in the middle of the booklet and would have to be a bigger-sized page than now, plus maps in landscape, but a bigger page would also allow more advertising.

[whistlekiller2000]

Jan 26, 2016 21:20:56 GMT theblackferret said:

Jan 26, 2016 21:12:00 GMT patrickb said:

The current 'Beck' design will be inadequate for the future additions of London Overground and Crossrail. A map needs to be clear and easy to interpret which is why redesigning it is a good idea.
I mentioned already that one of the new unofficial designs which includes 30 and 60 Degree Lines would be perfect for including all London Rail Services. Because very few railway services will be left out of the Overground Conversion, you could also get away with adding them (I believe they will be mostly mainline services out of various major railway Termini. By doing this, you wouldn't need a 'London Rail' Map and have as norbitonflyer said, a 'London Connections' from TfL.
Though for the sake of continuity, Harry Beck's Design could still be used with LU only, it would still be particularly useful for Tourists in the West End, very few of them would need Crossrail or London Overground, more would in the East End for places like Greenwich and Stratford.

Crossrail in itself won't be a problem for Beck's map, but I agree once LO starts swallowing other lines, the problems begin.

What I'd really like to see is a four-page fold-out booklet so, say page 2 forms the Tube map, pages 3 the rest map. That means they'd be next to each other in the middle of the booklet and would have to be a bigger-sized page than now, plus maps in landscape, but a bigger page would also allow more advertising.

I can foresee a time when paper maps of London Rail Services are totally superseded by electronic versions on smartphones and the like. Maybe not quite yet but it'll happen. At which point you'll be able to overlay whatever services you want to view on a basic underground map. The irony of the map is of course the need for TfL to get all its lines advertised to get the patronage. Look how inclusion on the map encouraged everyone onto the Overground. My eldest daughter (who rarely goes to London) uses an electronic map and just types in the start and end of the journey. The software sorts it all out, tells her the route and where (if required) to change and she gets where she needs to go without ever having looked at the traditional Beck type map at all. My offer of a paper version on her last visit was laughed out of court........ . The youth of today.......(hang on, she's 27 for God's sake).........

[theblackferret]

Jan 26, 2016 21:43:12 GMT whistlekiller2000 said:

Jan 26, 2016 21:20:56 GMT theblackferret said:

Crossrail in itself won't be a problem for Beck's map, but I agree once LO starts swallowing other lines, the problems begin.

What I'd really like to see is a four-page fold-out booklet so, say page 2 forms the Tube map, pages 3 the rest map. That means they'd be next to each other in the middle of the booklet and would have to be a bigger-sized page than now, plus maps in landscape, but a bigger page would also allow more advertising.

I can foresee a time when paper maps of London Rail Services are totally superseded by electronic versions on smartphones and the like. Maybe not quite yet but it'll happen. At which point you'll be able to overlay whatever services you want to view on a basic underground map. The irony of the map is of course the need for TfL to get all its lines advertised to get the patronage. Look how inclusion on the map encouraged everyone onto the Overground. My eldest daughter (who rarely goes to London) uses an electronic map and just types in the start and end of the journey. The software sorts it all out, tells her the route and where (if required) to change and she gets where she needs to go without ever having looked at the traditional Beck type map at all. My offer of a paper version on her last visit was laughed out of court........ . The youth of today.......(hang on, she's 27 for God's sake).........

Yes, I'm afraid you're right. No room for those of us who know how many beans make five 'ere long!

Apps are now surpassing aptitude for getting around. No doubt it's the same in the world of London taxis, where The Knowledge is probably apped onto satnav and Blueberry simultaneously.

Of course, you tell that to the youngsters of today and, sorry, wrong thread

[londoner]

From looking at several maps, I've highlighted what I feel works well (or doesn't) on the map and would (I feel) therefore be necessary to distinguish for a proposed redesign of the tube map:

www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/London_Rail_Tube_map.pdf

• Dashed lines for National Rail services
• All symbols explained in a separate box

www.london-tubemap.com/images/layer2.gif

• Avoid a geographically accurate map to avoid congestion. 
• Avoid placing National Rail symbol inside the interchange symbol as this is difficult to read.

alex4d.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/tube_map_future_2007_12.gif

• Avoid using bright fluorescent blue colours  
• National Rail stations should be in a different font to help distinguish them from underground stations. Any stations with both services should have an Underground font. 
• Avoid adding ports to the map to reduce clutter.
• Walking distances should be shown for interchanges requiring OSI which are shown on the map. 

www.citymetric.com/sites/default/files/article_2015/06/london-metro-subway-tube-map.png

• Use a different design from Beck's idea. 
• Add route number/ code at the destination of each route. 
• Add zone number next to station rather than having a shaded zone map.
• All destinations should be in bold font. 
• DLR should not have separate route indicators. 
• Interchanges indicated on map that are OSI should be indicated be a little "walking man" symbol
• Major parks should be shown on the map 
• Line name should appear above the line in Central London. 

General comments:

• All stations with step free access should continue to be shown on the map.  
• Avoid concentric circular maps. 
• Remove the cable car from the map.
• Distinguish between DLR, Underground, Overground (with separate route indicators) and Rail in the info box. 
• Increase the size of the tube map.

[stapler]

I can remember when the Central Area diagrams started within cars, and were placed adjacent to the larger linear maps. Perhaps the way forward will be for a larger central area map (all that most tourists, eg, need) to be placed by a larger "London's Railways" map on stations, the latter showing the lot...

[philthetube]

After being on Borough station and hearing an announcement, "there are severe delays on London Overground", I am inclined to agree that identifiers are needed.

[Chris M]

The lack of separate route identities confuses the journey planner too - I get a big warning notice that there are issues on my planned route. The route in question uses the Goblin between Upper Holloway and Leyton Midland Road, the issue in question is the part closure of the ELL between Highbury and Shadwell.

I know enough about the network to realise this is not a relevant issue, but it will put off people who are less confident or less knowledgeable. Are we going to see this problem for the entire duration of the Golbin blockade?

[wimblephil]

Spotted individual line diagrams beneath the advertising boards whilst travelling between Shepard's Bush/Clapham Junction this evening.

There were only ones for Watford Junction - Euston and Richmond/Clapham Junction - Stratford at the time, and each was named as written.

All the Overground Interchanges on the diagrams were labelled as per the routes available from them eg. 'Gospel Oak to Barking' at Gospel Oak, 'Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction/West Croydon' at Canonbury (note New Cross/Crystal Palace were note detailed; too many words I would suspect!)

So I would presume the plan is to give prominence to the 6 routes that operate? i.e.

Richmond/Clapham Junction - Stratford
Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction/West Croydon(/New Cross/Crystal Palace)
Watford Junction - Euston
Gospel Oak - Barking
Enfield Town/Cheshunt/Chingford - Liverpool Street
Romford - Upminster

[patrickb]

Mar 23, 2016 19:23:04 GMT wimblephil said:

Spotted individual line diagrams beneath the advertising boards whilst travelling between Shepard's Bush/Clapham Junction this evening.

There were only ones for Watford Junction - Euston and Richmond/Clapham Junction - Stratford at the time, and each was named as written.

All the Overground Interchanges on the diagrams were labelled as per the routes available from them eg. 'Gospel Oak to Barking' at Gospel Oak, 'Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction/West Croydon' at Canonbury (note New Cross/Crystal Palace were note detailed; too many words I would suspect!)

So I would presume the plan is to give prominence to the 6 routes that operate? i.e.

Richmond/Clapham Junction - Stratford
Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction/West Croydon(/New Cross/Crystal Palace)
Watford Junction - Euston
Gospel Oak - Barking
Enfield Town/Cheshunt/Chingford - Liverpool Street
Romford - Upminster

I've seen them and they are a good idea! They have diagrams for the lines which are covered by the Class 378's.
The Liverpool Street to Enfield Town/Cheshunt/Chingford Line has it's own diagram on the Class 315 and 317's.
The Class 172's still use the network diagrams but when the Aventra Trains arrive once electrification is finished, they should have the Euston to Watford Junction and Gospel Oak to Barking Line diagrams.
Yes there are many words on the interchange boxes, and it seems that it will stay this way unless lines are organized into names or numbers. I don't see the harm in giving each line a different shade of orange and name each line LO1, LO2, LO3 etc...
Overall I'm quite pleased about the new arrangement and I hope that the present stretched network diagram is taken off. Seeing Liverpool Street between Mile End and Stratford really is irritating. 

[Chris M]

The service disruption messages also still need work - at Bank on Saturday the announcement just said that the London Overground is partially closed. No detail given.
The part in question was Romford-Upminster only. I was heading for the Watford DC line so it was potentially relevant.

[dazz285]

[gantshill]

Those strip line maps could confuse.
Looking at the strip map, if you took a train from West Hampstead to Kensington (Olympia) it appears that you will travel through Zone 2, then Zone three and back into Zone 2. The normal Underground map suggests that you stay within Zone 2. For those of us with Zone 1&2 travelcards, this might imply that we would be charged for travelling through zone 3.

[norbitonflyer]

That is not just confusing but wrong! Willesden Junction is in both Zones, and passengers from the Richmond direction need to know it's in Zone 3, but that's not the best way to show it. Either have the CJ branch do a 180 degree turn at Willesden, so the 2/3 boundary can be vertical, or kink the z2/3 boundary.

Likewise, it is a bit pointless, although strictly accurate, to show Stratford in both zones, as you can only get to it on the Overground via Zone 2. If you're not going beyond Stratford, Zone 3 is an irrelevance - if you are, the zone to which you are travelling is determined by where you go next.

Does the Bakerloo show its southern terminus as being in both zones?

[jukes]

Take a look at www.whatdotheyknow.com Search through for TfL Ref: FOI-0876-1415 which is entitled Car Line Diagrams for London Overground You will find pdf versions of all the LO CLDs that existed as at May 2015 - not all were in use - only the West Anglia and whole network versions were at that time deployed.

[Alight]

Mar 23, 2016 19:23:04 GMT wimblephil said:

Spotted individual line diagrams beneath the advertising boards whilst travelling between Shepard's Bush/Clapham Junction this evening.

There were only ones for Watford Junction - Euston and Richmond/Clapham Junction - Stratford at the time, and each was named as written.

I spotted these a couple of weeks ago, when travelling between Canada Water and Highbury & Islington; as in your case, ironically there was no 'Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction/West Croydon' diagrams. I travelled on the same section a week later and they had all three variations.

Certainly a lot better to have these separate diagrams, however it does very much depend on where you are seated!

[patrickb]

Mar 24, 2016 10:43:00 GMT gantshill said:

Those strip line maps could confuse.
Looking at the strip map, if you took a train from West Hampstead to Kensington (Olympia) it appears that you will travel through Zone 2, then Zone three and back into Zone 2. The normal Underground map suggests that you stay within Zone 2. For those of us with Zone 1&2 travelcards, this might imply that we would be charged for travelling through zone 3.

I agree that the Richmond/Clapham Junction to Stratford Line Diagram is confusing, though this could have been easily avoided by not putting Zone 3 at Willesden Junction. Yes, yes, you need to specify that the station serves two zones etc. etc. however, I'm sure that there's an alternative to this arrangement.

Having WJ on two zones is more convenient on the Euston to Watford Junction Line Diagram because the line crosses through all the zones rather than straddle between two. The orbital lines will most likely be victim to this zone flaw and there's not much that can be done about that, except perhaps scrapping the zone system which I completely disagree with doing.

Patrick

[gantshill]

I have to say that working out how to design the strip map so that it is totally accurate isn't easy, especially if zone boundary lines need to be vertical.

[Chris M]

The zone boundary lines do not have to be vertical:

I also recall DLR maps were the lines were vertical and horizontal only (pre Stratford International branch), but I can't immediately find an example online.

[superteacher]

Finally, some news on this topic!

www.cityam.com/mayor-of-london-election-sadiq-khan-pledges-to-name-london-overground-lines/

Definitely needs to happen. If you ever read the service status updates for LO at a weekend, it's like reading a novel with all of the engineering works!

[quex]

Excellent! It's nice to see some sense finally being spoken on the issue by someone in charge. Let's hope they stick with the names (West London line, Watford DC, Goblin etc.) that existed prior to them being taken over by LO.

[superteacher]

Apr 6, 2021 14:36:07 GMT quex said:

Excellent! It's nice to see some sense finally being spoken on the issue by someone in charge. Let's hope they stick with the names (West London line, Watford DC, Goblin etc.) that existed prior to them being taken over by LO.

I doubt that Watford DC will be used, although it would be the name of choice for many of the enthusiasts!

[Red Dragon]

Would the West Anglia inners be considered seperate lines, considering they share relatively few stations?

My preference is for NLL, ELL, GOBLIN, Emerson Line, Watford DC (or Watford line if Watford DC is considered too esoteric), West Anglia line and East Anglia line.

[spsmiler]

Apr 6, 2021 14:36:07 GMT quex said:

Excellent! It's nice to see some sense finally being spoken on the issue by someone in charge. Let's hope they stick with the names (West London line, Watford DC, Goblin etc.) that existed prior to them being taken over by LO.

Of course it should have been done already, and whilst pre-Overground names would be optimal even as Line A, Line B, etc would be better than the present situation.

The formal naming should also be applied to the DLR.

[norbitonflyer]

Apr 6, 2021 15:41:33 GMT Red Dragon said:

Would the West Anglia inners be considered seperate lines, considering they share relatively few stations?

My preference is for NLL,

Too similar to the Northern Line?

ELL

It goes a long way west. How about naming it after the father-and-son team who built its most distinctive feature?

Emerson Line,

like it - everyone using the line is going to, from, or through that station!

Watford DC (or Watford line if Watford DC is considered too esoteric),

Potential confusion with the Watford branch of the Met. The LNWR, who built the line, styled itself as "The Premier Line" - premier meaning not only the best, but the first (as it incorporated the Liverpool & Manchester Railway)

West Anglia line and East Anglia line.

Too much potential for confusion with the other operator at Liverpool Street, and in any case neither line actually gets into East Anglia proper (lying entirely with the Kingdom of the Middle Saxons). "Lea Valley" has been suggested, but that is historically used for the line through Tottenham Hale and Ponders End. Chingford Line and Enfield Line seem suitable, although the latter may be considered ambiguous as the GN line also serves Enfield, and the name ignores the Southbury loop. It is sometimes known as the "Seven Sisters" line but, of course, the Victoria Line also serves that station. Edmonton Line?

[quex]

A name that's been suggested elsewhere for the Watford DC is resurrecting the old NSE-era "Harlequin Line" name, which I don't think is a bad idea.

[superteacher]

Apr 7, 2021 13:27:28 GMT quex said:

A name that's been suggested elsewhere for the Watford DC is resurrecting the old NSE-era "Harlequin Line" name, which I don't think is a bad idea.

Was it ever an official name though? I do recall seeing it on some publicity / timetables, but never heard it referred to as that in the general public domain.