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Post by programmes1 on Mar 10, 2017 10:00:22 GMT
I have read that there are no direction indicators on the Northern unlike the Jubilee, are they going to be installed at a later stage?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 10:16:16 GMT
Direction indicators are pretty pointless as they simply duplicate the information already displayed to the driver in the cab.
There are no plans to install them as part of the SSR resignalling and I would be surprised if there are any plans to retrofit them on the Northern. If anything it would be less surprising to see them removed from the Jubilee!
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Post by programmes1 on Mar 10, 2017 10:48:29 GMT
I can't disagree with you as they were not included originally on the Northern I understand it is the drivers union that was asking for them to be installed. They do seem pointless makes me wonder why they were provided for the Jubilee in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 21:04:55 GMT
I have read that there are no direction indicators on the Northern unlike the Jubilee, are they going to be installed at a later stage? What's a 'direction indicator'? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 21:08:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 22:35:30 GMT
They were installed because it was thought originally that there could be an error on the TOD and the driver needed a double check to ensure that the train was going to route the correct way. Stems from the limited understanding (and not 100% confidence) that we had of Seltrac in the early days. Once it was clear that (a) the TOD was very reliable in this respect and (b) the info on the TOD and on the DIs comes from the same source it was obvious that they were not necessary on the Northern line.
There was some pushback on this view early in the Northern line delivery as there was a view that the more complex Northern line routes were more likely to result in the equivalent of wrong signal lowered.
In all the time I was involved there has been no instance of a train being wrongly routed (once a few bugs were ironed out in testing).
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2017 0:27:15 GMT
They were installed because it was thought originally that there could be an error on the TOD and the driver needed a double check to ensure that the train was going to route the correct way. Stems from the limited understanding (and not 100% confidence) that we had of Seltrac in the early days. Once it was clear that (a) the TOD was very reliable in this respect and (b) the info on the TOD and on the DIs comes from the same source it was obvious that they were not necessary on the Northern line. There was some pushback on this view early in the Northern line delivery as there was a view that the more complex Northern line routes were more likely to result in the equivalent of wrong signal lowered. In all the time I was involved there has been no instance of a train being wrongly routed (once a few bugs were ironed out in testing). I can certainly think of occasions when trains have gone the wrong way, although perhaps not in the conventional way. There was one particularly ugly occasion when a full high-peak train load of passengers found themselves in Kennington siding. What happened was the train was being turned short due to late running. The signaller had correctly edited the trip, but for whatever reason the driver was not called up. Evidently he missed the (pretty inconspicuous) 'Destination Change' message when it flashed up on the TOD, and hadn't noticed the destination had altered in the corner of the TOD. It caused a lot of trouble as the train was crush loaded and the driver had a lot of trouble getting from one end to the other, as well as taking a massive amount of abuse to the extent that he felt his safety was mildly threatened. Speaking from experience I can guarantee many drivers do not keep an eye on the destination, maybe new drivers are more conditioned into doing it. So if the signaller doesn't call, the chances of this scenario happening are quite high. The destination change text message is easily missed. Whether destination indicators would help is debatable, but personally I would prefer them. In fact I'd prefer a red/blue starting signal at every platform, plus at intermediate locations where a hold can happen as well as at junctions, complete with an old-fashioned junction indicator. In fact, what I'd like most of all is for the useless system to be stripped out and the good old signalling reinstated! 😄 |
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Post by brigham on Mar 11, 2017 8:25:34 GMT
I can't remember anyone referring to a 'direction indicator' in relation to a rail vehicle except for Glasgow trams.
It must be a LPTB/LT thing. Normal railways have route indicators or junction indicators.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2017 9:42:47 GMT
I can't remember anyone referring to a 'direction indicator' in relation to a rail vehicle except for Glasgow trams. It must be a LPTB/LT thing. Normal railways have route indicators or junction indicators. It's a nasty term that appeared with TBTC and basically applies on the Jubilee Line. The indicator is not like a conventional junction indicator, but instead is a text box. For example, at Green Park the indicator will (IIRC) show 'WES' if the train is heading onto the extension, or 'CHX' if going to Charing Cross. |
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Post by brigham on Mar 11, 2017 12:55:56 GMT
A 'stencil indicator', in railway terms.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 17:58:20 GMT
I can certainly think of occasions when trains have gone the wrong way, although perhaps not in the conventional way. There was one particularly ugly occasion when a full high-peak train load of passengers found themselves in Kennington siding. What happened was the train was being turned short due to late running. The signaller had correctly edited the trip, but for whatever reason the driver was not called up. Evidently he missed the (pretty inconspicuous) 'Destination Change' message when it flashed up on the TOD, and hadn't noticed the destination had altered in the corner of the TOD. It caused a lot of trouble as the train was crush loaded and the driver had a lot of trouble getting from one end to the other, as well as taking a massive amount of abuse to the extent that he felt his safety was mildly threatened. Speaking from experience I can guarantee many drivers do not keep an eye on the destination, maybe new drivers are more conditioned into doing it. So if the signaller doesn't call, the chances of this scenario happening are quite high. The destination change text message is easily missed. Whether destination indicators would help is debatable, but personally I would prefer them. In fact I'd prefer a red/blue starting signal at every platform, plus at intermediate locations where a hold can happen as well as at junctions, complete with an old-fashioned junction indicator. In fact, what I'd like most of all is for the useless system to be stripped out and the good old signalling reinstated! 😄 Accepted that the scenario you describe is a possibility. I think there's an audible tone as well as the destination change message? Either way the driver should have had a call from the signaller or line controller and they should have been watching the TOD (if not all the time certainly some of the time). Or should have noticed the destination info on the DMIs on the platform. With money so tight in TfL now there isn't and wasn't much justification to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on DIs when the driver and signaller should be relied on to ensure that the scenario you describe is very rare or non existent. There were many other more important operational arguments to be won. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2017 19:19:10 GMT
I can certainly think of occasions when trains have gone the wrong way, although perhaps not in the conventional way. There was one particularly ugly occasion when a full high-peak train load of passengers found themselves in Kennington siding. What happened was the train was being turned short due to late running. The signaller had correctly edited the trip, but for whatever reason the driver was not called up. Evidently he missed the (pretty inconspicuous) 'Destination Change' message when it flashed up on the TOD, and hadn't noticed the destination had altered in the corner of the TOD. It caused a lot of trouble as the train was crush loaded and the driver had a lot of trouble getting from one end to the other, as well as taking a massive amount of abuse to the extent that he felt his safety was mildly threatened. Speaking from experience I can guarantee many drivers do not keep an eye on the destination, maybe new drivers are more conditioned into doing it. So if the signaller doesn't call, the chances of this scenario happening are quite high. The destination change text message is easily missed. Whether destination indicators would help is debatable, but personally I would prefer them. In fact I'd prefer a red/blue starting signal at every platform, plus at intermediate locations where a hold can happen as well as at junctions, complete with an old-fashioned junction indicator. In fact, what I'd like most of all is for the useless system to be stripped out and the good old signalling reinstated! 😄 Accepted that the scenario you describe is a possibility. I think there's an audible tone as well as the destination change message? Either way the driver should have had a call from the signaller or line controller and they should have been watching the TOD (if not all the time certainly some of the time). Or should have noticed the destination info on the DMIs on the platform. With money so tight in TfL now there isn't and wasn't much justification to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on DIs when the driver and signaller should be relied on to ensure that the scenario you describe is very rare or non existent. There were many other more important operational arguments to be won. Regarding the "Destination Change" message, yes there is a brief audible tone. But, particularly if driving in PM, it's quite easy to miss - as there are loads of other messages which come and go on the TOD. It doesn't help that every trip will see at least one "Destination Change" message at Euston s/b and Kennington n/b, so unfortunately it's a message which psychologically one is used to dismissing without action. I can only speak for myself, but no matter how much I try to make myself watch the destination, when it comes to it I'll be honest and say I can go a whole trip without paying attention to it. Others say likewise. It would help if the message remained on the TOD, ideally with the driver having to acknowledge it before it disappears. As you say, it comes down to cost, and I agree it would probably be difficult to justify the monetary cost for something which is a "nice to have", but not essential. I'd still prefer them though! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 11, 2017 20:38:30 GMT
every trip will see at least one "Destination Change" message at Euston s/b and Kennington n/b, Why is that? Don't they decide the destination before leaving Morden/Edgware/High Barnet? |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 11, 2017 20:48:33 GMT
I guess it's the removal of via points that are necessary before these points but not necessary once you are committed to one or other of the branches and then inaccurate once you reach Bank or Charing Cross. e.g. Southbound trains at Old Street are not advised as being "via Bank" because it's unnecessary and at Borough it would be inaccurate as the train will not be going via Bank.
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2017 20:49:20 GMT
every trip will see at least one "Destination Change" message at Euston s/b and Kennington n/b, Why is that? Don't they decide the destination before leaving Morden/Edgware/High Barnet? It changes from being, for example, Morden via Bank, to just Morden. Why this needs to be communicated to the driver I've no idea. From memory, the exact destination displayed on the TOD goes from "MOR-Y" to "MOR", although I can't remember 100% - it's something like that anyway. |
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2017 23:49:53 GMT
I guess it's the removal of via points that are necessary before these points but not necessary once you are committed to one or other of the branches and then inaccurate once you reach Bank or Charing Cross. e.g. Southbound trains at Old Street are not advised as being "via Bank" because it's unnecessary and at Borough it would be inaccurate as the train will not be going via Bank. Yes spot on, although why this needs to be done for the driver's benefit I can't imagine. The destination indicator on the front of the train is still set up by the driver, although how the train now filters out the via information I don't know. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 23:56:38 GMT
Why is that? Don't they decide the destination before leaving Morden/Edgware/High Barnet? It changes from being, for example, Morden via Bank, to just Morden. Why this needs to be communicated to the driver I've no idea. From memory, the exact destination displayed on the TOD goes from "MOR-Y" to "MOR", although I can't remember 100% - it's something like that anyway. It is exactly that unless I'm behind the times and something's changed. |
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Post by memorex on Mar 14, 2017 21:07:46 GMT
It goes back to the DMIs being fed from the same information as the TOD - there's no point in displaying 'via Bank' when you're at Old Street for example, so it's removed. The drivers TOD is updated to reflect this. Even the signallers' prediction lists loose the -Y and -X once the train is committed to the branch.
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Post by up1989 on Mar 20, 2017 13:46:20 GMT
I have heard of a few trains being wrongly routed, plus at places like Morden edgware, Barnet and Golders would be handy to know what platform you are being sent to. There have been some cases of trains going wrong route on night tube as the time table changes over. Ive experienced my Tod say a wrong destination at this time but have been lucky to be sat at a platform when this happens.
I would like to see indicators as well as station starters especially when some units speakers aren't very loud barely audible over the air con on.
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Post by memorex on Mar 20, 2017 21:55:03 GMT
I have heard of a few trains being wrongly routed, plus at places like Morden edgware, Barnet and Golders would be handy to know what platform you are being sent to. There have been some cases of trains going wrong route on night tube as the time table changes over. Ive experienced my Tod say a wrong destination at this time but have been lucky to be sat at a platform when this happens. By far the system isn't flawless, in that there are things I'm sure everyone would like to see added to it... however, a train cannot get routed to the wrong place in the conventional manner. There is no way a train on an assignment to Edgware will be inadvertently routed to Barnet. However, the system only routes trains in accordance with the timetable allocated to that run. If the run has been modified by accident, (I.E. the signaller edits the wrong train), that could be one reason. Another could be a reformation is taking place which creates a second train with the same number as the first. A destination modification intended for the first train would also apply to the second, even if not originally intended. There are workarounds for this but they're relatively long winded and can be easy to miss if you're busy. As to the night tube, as you said you were in a platform I'll provide an educated opinion on what you're talking about. At a certain time the previous days timetable becomes unassigned. The new one starts loading straight away but that takes a few minutes. You'll see your train number and desintarion change to your VIBC number and the last destination your train recieved. For clarity, this is normally the next platform or intermediate stopping point. This is not a wrong destination. When the new timetable loads, your new information is automatically assigned to your train, and your destination will be updated. It's also worth nothing that the automatic assignment is based upon your TMS number. If you have the wrong TMS number entered, you'll either get the wrong trains timetable loses or one at all, and the signaller will have to intervene. I would like to see indicators as well as station starters especially when some units speakers aren't very loud barely audible over the air con on. As you have a destination display on the TOD, what's the difference between checking that prior to a diverging junction and a trackside route indicator? |
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Post by up1989 on Mar 22, 2017 14:43:14 GMT
I have heard of a few trains being wrongly routed, plus at places like Morden edgware, Barnet and Golders would be handy to know what platform you are being sent to. There have been some cases of trains going wrong route on night tube as the time table changes over. Ive experienced my Tod say a wrong destination at this time but have been lucky to be sat at a platform when this happens. By far the system isn't flawless, in that there are things I'm sure everyone would like to see added to it... however, a train cannot get routed to the wrong place in the conventional manner. There is no way a train on an assignment to Edgware will be inadvertently routed to Barnet. However, the system only routes trains in accordance with the timetable allocated to that run. If the run has been modified by accident, (I.E. the signaller edits the wrong train), that could be one reason. Another could be a reformation is taking place which creates a second train with the same number as the first. A destination modification intended for the first train would also apply to the second, even if not originally intended. There are workarounds for this but they're relatively long winded and can be easy to miss if you're busy. As to the night tube, as you said you were in a platform I'll provide an educated opinion on what you're talking about. At a certain time the previous days timetable becomes unassigned. The new one starts loading straight away but that takes a few minutes. You'll see your train number and desintarion change to your VIBC number and the last destination your train recieved. For clarity, this is normally the next platform or intermediate stopping point. This is not a wrong destination. When the new timetable loads, your new information is automatically assigned to your train, and your destination will be updated. It's also worth nothing that the automatic assignment is based upon your TMS number. If you have the wrong TMS number entered, you'll either get the wrong trains timetable loses or one at all, and the signaller will have to intervene. I would like to see indicators as well as station starters especially when some units speakers aren't very loud barely audible over the air con on. As you have a destination display on the TOD, what's the difference between checking that prior to a diverging junction and a trackside route indicator? It just would be nice to have an extra visual indication especially at places like golders where you can go into different platform's as the god doesn't say what platform you are routed to. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 22, 2017 23:15:52 GMT
...at places like golders where you can go into different platform's as the god doesn't say what platform you are routed to. (My underline for emphasis) The idea of a god deciding where trains go sounds very Discworld! |
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Post by up1989 on Mar 23, 2017 19:28:46 GMT
...at places like golders where you can go into different platform's as the god doesn't say what platform you are routed to. (My underline for emphasis) The idea of a god deciding where trains go sounds very Discworld! Hahaha Wow my phones auto correct has a life on its own. I should correct it from God to TOD hahaha |
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