SSR Resignalling

[Dstock7080]

Another milestone this past weekend, 2-3 December, was that trains were tested automatically from Hammersmith to Edgware Road, some using the new (no.5) crossover to the west of Paddington.

[Deleted]

Oct 24, 2017 16:58:44 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Progress now rapid, some new target dates (actual dates removed):

mid-March 2018: Hammersmith Service Centre opens (Line controllers, Service Managers, Line Information Specialists transfer from Baker Street)
end-March 2018: ATC system ready for testing during Easter (30 March-2 April)
end-May 2018: first migration area 0.5 Hammersmith - Latimer Road goes live for passenger operation
end-June 2018: ATC extended into migration area 1 Latimer Road - Paddington

I am sure it was posted before, but what comes after migration area 1? I assume there will be a portion either side of Praed Street junction so that it is under full automatic control?

[Deleted]

Dec 5, 2017 20:19:52 GMT @ellis said:

Oct 24, 2017 16:58:44 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Progress now rapid, some new target dates (actual dates removed):

mid-March 2018: Hammersmith Service Centre opens (Line controllers, Service Managers, Line Information Specialists transfer from Baker Street)
end-March 2018: ATC system ready for testing during Easter (30 March-2 April)
end-May 2018: first migration area 0.5 Hammersmith - Latimer Road goes live for passenger operation
end-June 2018: ATC extended into migration area 1 Latimer Road - Paddington

I am sure it was posted before, but what comes after migration area 1? I assume there will be a portion either side of Praed Street junction so that it is under full automatic control?

SMA2 is (I believe, based on a perversely difficult to read diagram) Euston Square - Finchley Road and both Paddingtons

[Deleted]

Sounds about right think it goes to Kings Cross though not Euston Square

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2017 17:29:52 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Interesting - but unlikely to happen on LU I would have thought, as it is rare for trains of very different lengths to share tracks. I would hope that the system would default to the longest train possible on the system (an S8 or equivalent?)

I imagine as a result of the investigation, it may be made so it does indeed do this, but who knows but thales.

[philthetube]

Does the system use the lenght of the train or the position of the rear of it?

[Dstock7080]

Dec 5, 2017 22:49:08 GMT philthetube said:

Does the system use the lenght of the train or the position of the rear of it?

Under normal operation the rear VOBC Vehicle On Board Controller, will be that used to reduce the impact of wheel slip/slide.

[androom]

Dec 5, 2017 21:29:12 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

Sounds about right think it goes to Kings Cross though not Euston Square

King's Cross will be in SMA3 according to the document I found: content.tfl.gov.uk/fpc-160121-item11-four-lines-modernisation.pdf

[MoreToJack]

There's been some changes since that document was released, but KX remains in SMA 3. The boundary for SMA 2 Is Euston Square; with one exception on the Met, all migration boundaries are at station platforms due to the need to physically switch the train from Automatic to Tripcock mode (or vice versa).

[androom]

Dec 6, 2017 17:44:02 GMT MoreToJack said:

There's been some changes since that document was released, but KX remains in SMA 3. The boundary for SMA 2 Is Euston Square; with one exception on the Met, all migration boundaries are at station platforms due to the need to physically switch the train from Automatic to Tripcock mode (or vice versa).

Thanks MoreToJack! Do you know how quick is that switch will be?

[MoreToJack]

Dec 6, 2017 20:49:31 GMT androom said:

Dec 6, 2017 17:44:02 GMT MoreToJack said:

There's been some changes since that document was released, but KX remains in SMA 3. The boundary for SMA 2 Is Euston Square; with one exception on the Met, all migration boundaries are at station platforms due to the need to physically switch the train from Automatic to Tripcock mode (or vice versa).

Thanks MoreToJack! Do you know how quick is that switch will be?

Seconds - it's easily manageable in the available dwell fomes, assuming the trains are accepted into the signalling system correctly. It's no different to the transitional period between TBTC and conventional on the Northern line. Most won't notice the change - except, perhaps, for the exception on the Met(!).

[Deleted]

What’s so different about the Met’s?
Every SMA boundary will have a trainstop to protect a conventional signalled area hence why they chose station starters in first place, there is a few places which will have extra Trainstops but don’t know where and why

[Ben]

Is there a more up to date version of that document that explains the changes that have happened since?

[malcolmffc]

Is SMA0.5 still expected to go live in April?

[Deleted]

Unless your high up in LU or affected operationally it’s all being kept hush hush

0.5 and 1 will go live together last I heard and a rumour of 1st May bank holiday is the suggested latest date

[Dstock7080]

I believe the new target is 27 May, as the Hammersmith Control Centre will not be occupied until 5 May.

[MoreToJack]

Mar 20, 2018 20:17:36 GMT @aetearlscourt said:

Unless your high up in LU or affected operationally it’s all being kept hush hush

0.5 and 1 will go live together last I heard and a rumour of 1st May bank holiday is the suggested latest date

It sounds like we're back to SMA 0.5 (Hammersmith-Latimer Road) only from the latest murmurings on the ground; Hammersmith cabin will close at close of traffic on 25/05 with Hammersmith SCC signalling it's first revenue trains from SOT 28/05 (although expect services to actually start up on 27/05 as ghost running is happening most of the weekend with trains running empty from Latimer Road.)

HSCC will open for Line Controllers, Line Information Specialists and other technical staff on 05/05, replacing Baker Street for both the Met and the District.

However. All reference to this weekend has disappeared from the TfL Closures look-ahead, and it is understood that the project is running behind the the published dates. Nothing official has been given yet, and I suspect much depends on how the "trial running" weekend goes over Easter, when an empty, timetable service will be provided between Edgware Road and Hammersmith including the transition at Latimer Road.

SMA 1 (Latimer Road-Paddington [Suburban]) and SMA 2 (Paddington [Both]/Finchley Road-Euston Square) will also both be pushed back if SMA 0.5 is, which also reduces the gap before SMA 3 (Euston Square-Monument/Stepney Green) goes live, which remains on target for next year.

It's all still somewhat fluid and hush hush, but this forum will certainly be one of the first places to hear the final date of Hammersmith OZ. 😉

[Deleted]

You going to nick a lever then as a souvenir

[goldenarrow]

[superteacher]

Saw the test trains running into Edgware Road platform 2 today with lots of people wearing hi vis looking at computer screens! Were these trains running under full ATO?

[rincew1nd]

I don't think so, AIUI ATO on the branch, manual for the last bit into ERD.

[Dstock7080]

Mar 31, 2018 20:36:07 GMT superteacher said:

Saw the test trains running into Edgware Road platform 2 today with lots of people wearing hi vis looking at computer screens! Were these trains running under full ATO?

Mar 31, 2018 20:47:55 GMT rincew1nd said:

I don't think so, AIUI ATO on the branch, manual for the last bit into ERD.

You wouldn't be ale to mix full ATC trains with 'non trains' at Edgware Road.
Latimer Road-Hammersmith was being tested.

[MoreToJack]

Confirm the above statements.

Full CBTC operation Hammersmith (+sidings)-Latimer Road and switching into Tripcock mode from there to Edgware Road to reverse.

[will]

Excuse my ignorance of these matters but is testing fully completed on SMA 0.5 - Hammersmith - Latimer Road and does that mean that it will start being rolled out or is there more testing to do. Hasn't Baker Street Junction also been tested is that the next area to be commissioned?

Thanks

[MoreToJack]

Apr 1, 2018 12:36:40 GMT will said:

Excuse my ignorance of these matters but is testing fully completed on SMA 0.5 - Hammersmith - Latimer Road and does that mean that it will start being rolled out or is there more testing to do. Hasn't Baker Street Junction also been tested is that the next area to be commissioned?

Thanks

No. Whilst this weekend is being billed as the last trials for SMA0.5 there are still a few more trials planned; notably an 'Operational Proving' weekend (originally planned for this weekend but deferred) which will run a full service but out of service and with line operators as opposed to test crew.

The next migration area, SMA1, is Latimer Road-Paddington, and is entirely plain line aside from the commissioning of the new crossover west of Paddington Sub.

Thus far only one test weekend has occurred over Baker Street junction, and even then only to/from platforms 5 & 6. There's a lot of work still to do and SMA2 (Paddington [Both]/Finchley Road-Euston Square) is likely to be pushed back. Not that I'm complaining... 🤓

[will]

Apr 1, 2018 13:28:59 GMT MoreToJack said:

Apr 1, 2018 12:36:40 GMT will said:

Excuse my ignorance of these matters but is testing fully completed on SMA 0.5 - Hammersmith - Latimer Road and does that mean that it will start being rolled out or is there more testing to do. Hasn't Baker Street Junction also been tested is that the next area to be commissioned?

Thanks

No. Whilst this weekend is being billed as the last trials for SMA0.5 there are still a few more trials planned; notably an 'Operational Proving' weekend (originally planned for this weekend but deferred) which will run a full service but out of service and with line operators as opposed to test crew.

The next migration area, SMA1, is Latimer Road-Paddington, and is entirely plain line aside from the commissioning of the new crossover west of Paddington Sub.

Thus far only one test weekend has occurred over Baker Street junction, and even then only to/from platforms 5 & 6. There's a lot of work still to do and SMA2 (Paddington [Both]/Finchley Road-Euston Square) is likely to be pushed back. Not that I'm complaining... 🤓

I know you love your signals and might be sad to see ATO brought in but it will be a vast improvement. The circle is sooooooo slow and to have improved junction control ect as well as much better Northern/Jubilee levels of reliability will be incredible the District particularly has been so bad lately some days with 2/3 different failures. Be nice to see the departure boards and apps working with proper information soon rather than inaccurate or no info or exclusively check front of train.

Thanks for the info

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2018 15:06:35 GMT will said:

to have improved junction control ect

You're optimistic

[superteacher]

Apr 1, 2018 15:12:18 GMT tut said:

Apr 1, 2018 15:06:35 GMT will said:

to have improved junction control ect

You're optimistic

Indeed! Let’s hope they’ve found some improved algorithms because from what’s been said on this forum, TBTC isn’t overly efficient at dealing with junctions!

[MoreToJack]

Apr 1, 2018 15:06:35 GMT will said:

Apr 1, 2018 13:28:59 GMT MoreToJack said:

No. Whilst this weekend is being billed as the last trials for SMA0.5 there are still a few more trials planned; notably an 'Operational Proving' weekend (originally planned for this weekend but deferred) which will run a full service but out of service and with line operators as opposed to test crew.

The next migration area, SMA1, is Latimer Road-Paddington, and is entirely plain line aside from the commissioning of the new crossover west of Paddington Sub.

Thus far only one test weekend has occurred over Baker Street junction, and even then only to/from platforms 5 & 6. There's a lot of work still to do and SMA2 (Paddington [Both]/Finchley Road-Euston Square) is likely to be pushed back. Not that I'm complaining... 🤓

I know you love your signals and might be sad to see ATO brought in but it will be a vast improvement. The circle is sooooooo slow and to have improved junction control ect as well as much better Northern/Jubilee levels of reliability will be incredible the District particularly has been so bad lately some days with 2/3 different failures. Be nice to see the departure boards and apps working with proper information soon rather than inaccurate or no info or exclusively check front of train.

Thanks for the info

Yes and no. Whilst CBTC will undoubtedly bring about some improvements it isn't a magic wand and people need to stop claiming it will be. Many of the problems that exist under conventional will still remain even after resignalling, something that few senior managers will acknowledge despite numerous front line staff telling them such.

The Circle will be just as slow through the core areas; see some of the recent discussions on TBTC as to why this might be. Improved junction handling? Nope. Whilst on paper that's the theory, the reality is unlikely. There's a certain skill to running Praed Street Junction, for instance, and a computer can't replicate that. My colleagues who have spent time on the Sim were not particularly impressed.

Even in terms of reliability things aren't black and white. At the moment it's possible to keep running through all but the most severe of failures, which keeps people moving even with slightly longer journey times. Under the new system if you lose a computer then everything grinds to a halt with little scope to do anything bar get stalled trains into platforms - and it's a very labour intensive process. This happens regularly on both the Jubilee and Northern. Again, see other threads for a more comprehensive overview.

The existing signalling is certainly life expired - I'm the first to admit that. But, as I say, the new isn't going to immediately solve every single problem, and in some circumstances will make problems worse. Anyone who claims otherwise is at best naive. To work successfully the SSL needs a huge culture shift across all grades, and with current industrial relations I doubt that will happen.

[superteacher]

We have to remember that TBTC is totally untested on a system as complex as the SSR. Aldgate, Baker Street, Paddington, Earls Court all pose major challenges.