Northern-Piccadilly link

[waysider]

Does anybody know, now that sending trains to the Acton works seems to be a thing of the past, how often does the northern lines link to the Piccadilly line (and the rest of the system) at Kings Cross get used now? Once a week? A month? Less than that??? 

[trc666]

I'm pretty sure it gets fairly regularly used by engineering trains but stock moves are quite rare now.

[dagdave]

The Track Recording Vehicle records the Northern line every eight weeks and it take two nights each time (because we do not have TBTC fitted we have run at night as the only train on the line) so the Euston and Kings cross loops do get used regularly by us.

[MoreToJack]

Even without the regular trips by the Track Recording Train it generally gets used at least once a week for various purposes, including overnight engineering trains and stock transfers from the Northern line to Northfields depot for a spell on the test track.

51545 - Covent Garden by Jack Gordon, on Flickr

It is also worth mentioning that both loops also see occasional emergency use to bung service trains out of the way in the event of disruption.

[Deleted]

How does the Northern Line Train, with Northern Line Seltrac fitted, run on the Piccadilly Line? - Is the Piccadilly on an Engineering Possession in that photo? (I see the orange clad engineering staff in the background).

[MoreToJack]

All 95TS transfers are run under normal signalling - i.e. TBTC up to up to signal L22 in the King's Cross loop, at which point tripcock mode is selected and the train is operared to conventional signalling.

Any trains that transfer are refitted with tripcocks at each end prior to departing Golders Green depot.

The train operates on the Piccadilly under an Incompatible Train Mivements Procedure, and must run behind the last passenger train or ahead of the first. Various other conditions also apply; this is to protect the integrity of the signalling system in the event of an incident (recognising that the signalling is not 'set up' for the 95TS, as it were).

The staff in orange are unconnected to the transfer; they will be observing the passage of the last train prior to the switching off of traction current, before beginning their tasks for the night.

[DWS]

Aug 6, 2017 20:07:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

All 95TS transfers are run under normal signalling - i.e. TBTC up to up to signal L22 in the King's Cross loop, at which point tripcock mode is selected and the train is operared to conventional signalling.

Any trains that transfer are refitted with tripcocks at each end prior to departing Golders Green depot.

The train operates on the Piccadilly under an Incompatible Train Mivements Procedure, and must run behind the last passenger train or ahead of the first. Various other conditions also apply; this is to protect the integrity of the signalling system in the event of an incident (recognising that the signalling is not 'set up' for the 95TS, as it were).

The staff in orange are unconnected to the transfer; they will be observing the passage of the last train prior to the switching off of traction current, before beginning their tasks for the night.

Do the 1996TS get fitted with trip cocks if they have to go to Northfields ?

[rincew1nd]

Do 96ts go to Northfields?

[Ben]

"Incompatible Train Movements Procedure" - Interesting MoreToJack. Though slightly OT, what other stocks and movement types are covered by such codification? Is it more a 'catch-all' for any unusual/exceptional stock working away from its native line/signalling, or are its parameters more well-defined and specific than that?

[DWS]

Aug 6, 2017 21:12:27 GMT rincew1nd said:

Do 96ts go to Northfields?

Yes they go for brake testing on the test track.

[Deep Level]

Aug 6, 2017 22:24:45 GMT DWS said:

Aug 6, 2017 21:12:27 GMT rincew1nd said:

Do 96ts go to Northfields?

Yes they go for brake testing on the test track.

How do they get there?

[Dstock7080]

Aug 7, 2017 6:37:26 GMT Deep Level said:

How do they get there?

Neasden-Rayners Lane-Acton Town-Northfields

[MoreToJack]

Aug 6, 2017 21:06:17 GMT DWS said:

Aug 6, 2017 20:07:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

All 95TS transfers are run under normal signalling - i.e. TBTC up to up to signal L22 in the King's Cross loop, at which point tripcock mode is selected and the train is operared to conventional signalling.

Any trains that transfer are refitted with tripcocks at each end prior to departing Golders Green depot.

The train operates on the Piccadilly under an Incompatible Train Mivements Procedure, and must run behind the last passenger train or ahead of the first. Various other conditions also apply; this is to protect the integrity of the signalling system in the event of an incident (recognising that the signalling is not 'set up' for the 95TS, as it were).

The staff in orange are unconnected to the transfer; they will be observing the passage of the last train prior to the switching off of traction current, before beginning their tasks for the night.

Do the 1996TS get fitted with trip cocks if they have to go to Northfields ?

Yes, they also get refitted with tripcocks for the move. I believe the whole thing is run under conventional signalling through the mixed-mode area around Neasden.

Aug 6, 2017 21:25:59 GMT Ben said:

"Incompatible Train Movements Procedure" - Interesting MoreToJack . Though slightly OT, what other stocks and movement types are covered by such codification? Is it more a 'catch-all' for any unusual/exceptional stock working away from its native line/signalling, or are its parameters more well-defined and specific than that?

Effectively any train movements that are not controlled or allowed by the 'normal signalling procedures' for a line or stock. Generally they are used to permit movements of engineers' trains ovea ATO-fitted lines outside of a possession, but also exist for other transfers - for example the 1996 stock transfers have one specifically to traverse the Rayners Lane-Ealing Common section for the purposes of mitigating against electro-magnetic interference with the signalling system, and the 1972 stock transfers have one permitting them to operate over the Jubilee line between Baker Street and Neasden without requiring a full line possession.

The overall process is encapsulated within the LU Rule Books, including the operation of incompatible trains within possessions, but ITMPs must be developed individually for trains/circumstances where this does not apply.

[Deleted]

My thought, if the whole Jubilee-Northern-Piccadilly lines group was fitted with Track Loop based Seltrac Signalling, as originally intended, it would have greatly simplified matters, as trains could have run under J-N-P Seltrac all the way, once the route was programmed into the Control Centre's Computer(s).

For general interest, this is the Manufacturer's Brochure originally produced for the J-N-P Lines Seltrac Installation.
www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/seltracr_in_london_jnp.pdf

[br7mt]

ITMPs will also be used when testing the new 4LM signalling as at that point it will not be an approved train protection method.

Regards,

Dan

[MoreToJack]

Aug 7, 2017 18:24:59 GMT @kkc35348 said:

My thought, if the whole Jubilee-Northern-Piccadilly lines group was fitted with Track Loop based Seltrac Signalling, as originally intended, it would have greatly simplified matters, as trains could have run under J-N-P Seltrac all the way, once the route was programmed into the Control Centre's Computer(s).

For general interest, this is the Manufacturer's Brochure originally produced for the J-N-P Lines Seltrac Installation.
www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/seltracr_in_london_jnp.pdf

Not really. There's enough differences between the Jubilee and Northern line implementations that it could cause issues. The trains also behave slightly differently (and any new stock would also be different again) and each of these would need to be validated across the various lines - even if 'technically' the signalling systems are the same products. It would be equally as arduous to transfer between the lines with the need to exit and enter the separate systems, in the same way that the trains have to swap to and from conventional signalling. If the various 'profiles' don't exist then it's still running under an ITMP.

[nig]

Aug 7, 2017 18:24:59 GMT @kkc35348 said:

My thought, if the whole Jubilee-Northern-Piccadilly lines group was fitted with Track Loop based Seltrac Signalling, as originally intended, it would have greatly simplified matters, as trains could have run under J-N-P Seltrac all the way, once the route was programmed into the Control Centre's Computer(s).

For general interest, this is the Manufacturer's Brochure originally produced for the J-N-P Lines Seltrac Installation.
www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/seltracr_in_london_jnp.pdf

That was probably the plan never got done though the picadilly is still a manual line so no loops at all

[Deleted]

If they do convert the Piccadilly line, I hope that they use the tried and tested traditional track loop based system, rather than the Radio based system for compatibility with the Northern and Jubilee Lines. The new fangled radio based system, unfortunately still needs physical hard wired Track Circuits as evidenced on the Victoria Line. (You can physically see the track circuit wiring leads on Victoria Line stations).

Here is some interesting information about the Victoria Line Track Circuits:
tfl.gov.uk/info-for/business-and-commercial/remote-track-circuit-monitoring-system

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2017 19:58:34 GMT @kkc35348 said:

If they do convert the Piccadilly line, I hope that they use the tried and tested traditional track loop based system, rather than the Radio based system for compatibility with the Northern and Jubilee Lines. The new fangled radio based system, unfortunately still needs physical hard wired Track Circuits as evidenced on the Victoria Line. 

As has been said many times by many members on this forum, never expect the logical decision to be the one that is chosen.

[superteacher]

I'd expect that all lines to be served by the New Tube for London will have a compatible signalling system after they have been upgraded. It would be much too costly to do anything else.

But let's not get side tracked into a signalling discussion - there are other boards for that. If anyone wants to discuss this further, feel free to start a new thread.

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2017 19:58:34 GMT @kkc35348 said:

If they do convert the Piccadilly line, I hope that they use the tried and tested traditional track loop based system, rather than the Radio based system for compatibility with the Northern and Jubilee Lines. The new fangled radio based system, unfortunately still needs physical hard wired Track Circuits as evidenced on the Victoria Line. (You can physically see the track circuit wiring leads on Victoria Line stations).

Here is some interesting information about the Victoria Line Track Circuits:
tfl.gov.uk/info-for/business-and-commercial/remote-track-circuit-monitoring-system

The Victoria line's DTG-R system does employ track circuits, but the Thales CBTC system being installed on the SSR does not as was pointed out in another thread a few days ago.

Aug 5, 2017 17:34:01 GMT t697 said:

Aug 5, 2017 16:58:24 GMT @kkc35348 said:

I wonder has the radio based system proved itself yet on a complex railway, using the traditional proven track loop system may be a better idea. The downside with radio based systems is that you still need Track Circuits (Hint = Victoria Line 2009 stock), which can be done away with in the track loop system.

The Thales system for SSR uses radio but does not use track circuits. RF tags each with unique IDs perform a function similar to JL/NL loop crossovers and there are axle counters at certain locations.