4G Goes underground????

[alpinejohn]

Mayor Khan announced yesterday, that from 2019, he wants to extend 4G cover (and possibly 5G ready) throughout the Tube and TFL (so presumably bus and Overground services too). This seems to follow on from the planned Elizabeth Line provision.

So is this really a good thing?

Am I the only one to wonder if providing passengers on the tube with a new distraction is a positive development - especially on already crowded platforms and escalators?

I also wonder if this initiative is less about "enhancing the customer offer" and more about tapping into a massive source of new funding.

Think about it - users (passengers) will presumably want the system to be free for users on their particular network - so effectively pointing to a fully common carrier system which will need to be funded, owned and run fairly and independently. However just like the above ground bidding wars for 4G wavelengths, mobile phone networks might engage in a furious bidding war if it allows them to exclusively own/install the underground systems, and to at least for a fixed period, prioritise or exclusively serve their own network customers and thereby putting their network at massive advantage going forward? Hopefully OFCOM will be watching this idea closely.

Being a bit of a luddite I admit that I rather enjoy the point near East Finchley when the Northern plunges underground ending all those annoyingly loud mobile phone calls. Stop this world I want to get off please.

[trt]

I believe it benefits the emergency services primarily, and the public use of the system whilst not being used for emergencies, pays for it all, or contributes anyway, as well as providing continuous testing.

[Chris M]

Most station platforms already have wifi so I don't think this will have a significant effect on safety. Indeed, it's normally easier to pay attention to one's surroundings when using a phone as a phone than it is using it as a computer.

[Deleted]

Most other countries (Sweden, Holland, China, America, Australia to name a few) have full 4G on their metro system. London is seriously lagging behind (as usual). 4G for 2019 is to little to late, we'll no doubt be preparing for 6G by then.

It's not only useful for calls (meeting people at a location they're unsure of, updating friends/family of any delays etc) it's also useful for route planning (for tourists) and quick notification of any service disruption and work out a way to avoid it.

[North End]

Aug 12, 2017 9:01:59 GMT Chris M said:

Most station platforms already have wifi so I don't think this will have a significant effect on safety. Indeed, it's normally easier to pay attention to one's surroundings when using a phone as a phone than it is using it as a computer.

From an operational point of view, having any form of data or phone reception in the tunnels (stations and trains) is a disaster. Whilst it's nice to have (and I use it myself for both personal and work-related use) in my view the benefits are seriously compromised by the negative effect on passenger behaviour. There has been a massive increase in the number of instances where devices need to be retrieved from the track - which causes delay, takes up staff resources, or in the worst cases results in unauthorised access to the track. Meanwhile, so many people walk around with their face glued to their device, at best hindering flows in already overcrowded places, and at worst compromising their own or the safety of others.

It's fine for people to use whilst sitting on a bench waiting for a train or standing out of the way. It's not fine to use whilst walking about in crowded places and paying no attention to surroundings. Likewise when boarding or alighting from a train, or when using an escalator, when as well as being a nuisance to others and getting in the way of passenger flow, it is also potentially very dangerous not to be paying attention. Official data shows a big increase in these sorts of accidents recently. Is social media really that exciting? If so my life must be unfulfilled as I don't use it! Better things to do than look at a photo of someone else's breakfast...

[snoggle]

Aug 12, 2017 8:31:18 GMT trt said:

I believe it benefits the emergency services primarily, and the public use of the system whilst not being used for emergencies, pays for it all, or contributes anyway, as well as providing continuous testing.

The Mayor switched on his washing machine and put it into "hyper spin" mode. This is really nothing to with the Mayor but with the former Home Secretary (now PM). She sanctioned the introduction of 4G capability on the tube to provide, as you say, a replacement comms network for the emergency services. The Mayor hasn't done anything - it's a long standing requirement to replace airwave (AIUI). If the scheme had not proceeded there would be a point at which the emergency services could not communicate underground which is wholly unacceptable.

www.mayorwatch.co.uk/despite-his-attempts-at-spin-credit-for-a-4g-connected-tube-belongs-to-theresa-may-not-sadiq-khan/

Transcript of Assembly meeting to discuss comms for emergency services


On the wider point of "usefulness" and "safety" I understand the comments made by others. The only places where I have seen mobile telephony work on a Metro underground are Hong Kong and Singapore. That was a few years ago now but I didn't notice any horrendous or intrusive behaviour and phones are very widely used in those places.

[Chris M]

I've just remembered that I took this photograph of a person using their phone on the underground platform at Monument Metro station in Newcastle in 2005. While the Tyne and Wear Metro is nowhere near the scale of the tube, I'm not aware that there have been any serious incidents resulting from people using their phones there in the past 12+ years.

[londoner]

It won't make any difference. People already use their phones with or without the internet access. It will only change how people use their phone.

[rincew1nd]

Aug 12, 2017 22:19:33 GMT londoner said:

It won't make any difference. People already use their phones with or without the internet access. It will only change how people use their phone.

Exactly, I was engrossed in reading the RAIB Watford tunnel report on my phone yesterday and nearly ended up in the Kennington loop as a result. All done with no signal.

[35b]

Aug 12, 2017 20:32:03 GMT snoggle said:

Aug 12, 2017 8:31:18 GMT trt said:

I believe it benefits the emergency services primarily, and the public use of the system whilst not being used for emergencies, pays for it all, or contributes anyway, as well as providing continuous testing.

The Mayor switched on his washing machine and put it into "hyper spin" mode. This is really nothing to with the Mayor but with the former Home Secretary (now PM). She sanctioned the introduction of 4G capability on the tube to provide, as you say, a replacement comms network for the emergency services. The Mayor hasn't done anything - it's a long standing requirement to replace airwave (AIUI). If the scheme had not proceeded there would be a point at which the emergency services could not communicate underground which is wholly unacceptable.

www.mayorwatch.co.uk/despite-his-attempts-at-spin-credit-for-a-4g-connected-tube-belongs-to-theresa-may-not-sadiq-khan/

Transcript of Assembly meeting to discuss comms for emergency services


On the wider point of "usefulness" and "safety" I understand the comments made by others. The only places where I have seen mobile telephony work on a Metro underground are Hong Kong and Singapore. That was a few years ago now but I didn't notice any horrendous or intrusive behaviour and phones are very widely used in those places.

And, from limited experience in Hong Kong, the problem of people focusing on their screen rather than where they're going is no worse than it already is on the Tube.

[dagdave]

4G is currently available at all LU stations above ground (most of the network) and wifi available at stations underground, with associated wifi calling. Is it such a leap to have 4G available underground too?

Like it or not this is the way of the world and we should embrace it. Issues regarding phone use behaviour are not exclusively a problem with LU, if anything users maybe less stressed about being cut off in mid sentence or tweet.

[Deleted]

I will be in the tunnels itself

[trt]

Sky news piece on the WiFi tracking technology.

[Dstock7080]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49042588

tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/july/4g-on-jubilee-line-tunnel-section-from-march-2020

Passengers will be able to make calls and go online anywhere on the London Underground by the mid-2020s.
Transport for London (TfL) has announced plans for mobile users to have 4G access across the Tube network.
The Jubilee Line will be the first to benefit, with the eastern half to get full mobile connectivity on both platforms and tunnels from March (2020).

[futurix]

Disappointing.

[class411]

A step backwards. (Not literally, obviously.)

[Chris M]

Jul 19, 2019 9:28:01 GMT futurix said:

Disappointing.

Jul 19, 2019 9:39:43 GMT class411 said:

A step backwards. (Not literally, obviously.)

Why do you think this is a bad thing? The above-ground sections of the network are not a constant racket of people talking on their phone, so I don't see why it would be different on these new sections.

[trt]

Jul 19, 2019 9:51:24 GMT Chris M said:

Jul 19, 2019 9:28:01 GMT futurix said:

Disappointing.

Jul 19, 2019 9:39:43 GMT class411 said:

A step backwards. (Not literally, obviously.)

Why do you think this is a bad thing? The above-ground sections of the network are not a constant racket of people talking on their phone, so I don't see why it would be different on these new sections.

Possibly because people are used to being incommunicado on the tube. Given that they could have a long conversation about Aya Napa or Auntie Aisha's make-up cake without being interrupted by signal black-outs, they might try it. Compare with NR train services, where roughly 3 out of every 5 journeys I have to put up with yackety-yak down my earhole.

They have first class - they need a grumpy class.

[futurix]

Precisely.
Also I won't be able to amuse myself with chatty loudmouths losing their connections when the train goes into tunnels at Finchley Road.

Side note: I just remembered I won't be living in London in two weeks time anyway - but still, I'll miss this remote schadenfreude.

[class411]

Jul 19, 2019 9:51:24 GMT Chris M said:

Jul 19, 2019 9:28:01 GMT futurix said:

Disappointing.

Jul 19, 2019 9:39:43 GMT class411 said:

A step backwards. (Not literally, obviously.)

Why do you think this is a bad thing? The above-ground sections of the network are not a constant racket of people talking on their phone, so I don't see why it would be different on these new sections.

Yes, actually that was a rather knee-jerk anachronistic reaction from me.

Some years back people yacking on the SSL's (Sub Surface Lines) were an annoyance, but now that people just stare at their phones it really isn't much of a problem.

[simran1966]

I would imagine usage will be mostly for data rather than voice calls. I'm not even sure it would be possible to hold a conversation in a deep level tube, although I don't suppose that'd stop some people!

[Chris M]

Jul 19, 2019 11:28:49 GMT simran1966 said:

I would imagine usage will be mostly for data rather than voice calls. I'm not even sure it would be possible to hold a conversation in a deep level tube, although I don't suppose that'd stop some people!

Indeed, it is barely possible to hold a conversation with a person sat next to you on some parts of the deep tube - Leyton to Stratford immediately springs to mind but it's far from the only place.

[Chris L]

Jul 19, 2019 11:54:26 GMT Chris M said:

Jul 19, 2019 11:28:49 GMT simran1966 said:

I would imagine usage will be mostly for data rather than voice calls. I'm not even sure it would be possible to hold a conversation in a deep level tube, although I don't suppose that'd stop some people!

Indeed, it is barely possible to hold a conversation with a person sat next to you on some parts of the deep tube - Leyton to Stratford immediately springs to mind but it's far from the only place.

Data use will include Skype and WhatsApp calls. People using handsfree to make calls will mean shouting at their phone in tunnels. Travelling on a very crowded Jubilee line train will require ear plugs if several people are doing it at the same time.

[Chris M]

The distinction is between voice and non-voice use. The above-ground sections of the network are not a constant battle of people using voice (be-it phone calls, whatsapp, skype or whatever) so why the assumption that they will in areas where it is harder to do that?

[Chris L]

Jul 19, 2019 12:51:07 GMT Chris M said:

The distinction is between voice and non-voice use. The above-ground sections of the network are not a constant battle of people using voice (be-it phone calls, whatsapp, skype or whatever) so why the assumption that they will in areas where it is harder to do that?

The release states that data usage in tunnels will be very good. Fast enough to watch movies.

The point I made is a crowded small train where you don't have the option to move away with loud voices because of track noise.

[Chris M]

The issue though is how many people will do that? I suspect the answer is somewhere between very few and none - almost anyone watching movies or youtube or something like that will be doing so via headphones, as that's what most people seem to do above ground at the moment. Not that I suspect many people will actually use the data for these things as most journeys are short.

[futurix]

On modern phones you can have a single call that will switch from 4G to WiFi and back again without breaking - so it will be much easier to just keep talking anywhere.

I don't mind people watching movies in headphones, but no-one invented headphones for talking mouths yet. Also noise-cancelling headphones will help with mitigating the tunnel noise - except that the owners will have to shout back to be heard... and I bet they will, because people in headphones tend to be remarkably ignorant of the real world around them.

From personal experience, metros with consistent mobile signal do have a much larger proportion of people talking on their phones. So the same fate will befall Underground.

OK, I think I'm expended my daily amount of grumpiness. Phew.

[class411]

Jul 19, 2019 15:00:46 GMT futurix said:

From personal experience, metros with consistent mobile signal do have a much larger proportion of people talking on their phones. So the same fate will befall Underground.

My initial reaction was to think the same as that, but when Chris M mentioned the current state of the overground sections of the underground (???), I realised that I haven't been bothered by anyone making a phone call on the underground for, probably, years.

The last time I specifically remember it happening on any metro was the DLR around six years ago. Even on NR it seems to be quite rare nowadays (not people making calls, but people making calls in a way that is disturbing to others).

[goldenarrow]

Whist I like the data abyss that we get in London when on the Underground, its hardly an ocean of tranquility given the background noise thats never far away on the deep level lines.

Besides, the amount of time in lost productivity that goes with using the Underground must even be having a quiatifabke economic impact given that the average London commuter spends up to a third of their working careers just getting to and from work. I think that texting will by far out pace actual phone calls given that you would be in a pterry vain shouting competition on significant parts of the network. If that is indeed the case, then audibly, there won't be much of change if any.

[alpinejohn]

So nearly two years on and someone decides another announcement should be made stating the first section will go live next year. Why? Why now?

On the face of it this is a rehash of the initial announcement rather than the actual launch of the new service?
Which for conspiracy theory supporters triggers the question why of why would they put out a press release about such a non-event now? Are they hoping to distract our attention from something else?


I rather like the concept of people having a grumpiness quotient. I somehow doubt TFL can arrange for that inbuilt grumpiness to be exhausted by exposing passengers to a constant data torrent throughout their journey, let alone producing some sort of nirvana state among tube passengers. We can but hope.


In the meantime I can definitely see this project being of real benefit to below ground emergency service communication and it may also aid revenue protection, and future passenger flow modelling.

As the system will use TFL owned kit, presumably TFL will have rights of access to any data, even if the kit is then sub-leased to individual mobile providers. So it should mean that TFL will finally have some very reliable start to finish tracking of your mobile connection. (Yes there are a few travellers out there who do not own a mobile but is suspect they are no longer statistically relevant.)

The data should show how individuals actually route through the blackhole sections. It won't take a lot more effort to then match phone data with video feeds of entry and exit gate swipes to identify the mobiles of individuals of interest (those not paying their way). So for instance if a mobile regularly enters the system at an ungated station lets say Chalfont & Latimer and exits in Westminster but with no Oyster trace roughly matching the entry/exit times it might be worth checking the CCTV, indeed a bit of specialist software investment could quickly claw back its initial cost.

The data may also allow TFL to better prepare for the events like the launch of Elizabeth Line or help real-time management of incidents.

Very slow progress by a large number of mobile connections will reveal corridors and other pinch point locations where significant human traffic jams are already happening, and provide data to show if problems have been improved or got worse.

As the money tree is likely to remain severely constrained, that data could allow limited funds to be targeted on areas where relatively small physical improvements might deliver the greatest customer benefit.

I am rather looking forward to the system going live, but it is a bit like most free stuff, people quickly assume that they have a right to expect a train service provider to do stuff which is not really about running trains. I guess TFL will eventually realise this new feature has also unleashed a new opportunity for passengers to flood social media with tweets about even the slightest delay in their journeys, and heaven knows how they will react if or when the system develops some sort of fault. Hey ho there goes progress.