4G Goes underground????

[futurix]

Grumpiness aside - this is going to be very useful, of course. There were many occasions in the past where I would certainly have benefitted from ability to call or text from a train trapped in the tunnels to warm that I'm going to be late etc.

[Chris L]

Jul 20, 2019 8:22:18 GMT alpinejohn said:

So nearly two years on and someone decides another announcement should be made stating the first section will go live next year. Why? Why now?

On the face of it this is a rehash of the initial announcement rather than the actual launch of the new service?
Which for conspiracy theory supporters triggers the question why of why would they put out a press release about such a non-event now? Are they hoping to distract our attention from something else?


I rather like the concept of people having a grumpiness quotient. I somehow doubt TFL can arrange for that inbuilt grumpiness to be exhausted by exposing passengers to a constant data torrent throughout their journey, let alone producing some sort of nirvana state among tube passengers. We can but hope.


In the meantime I can definitely see this project being of real benefit to below ground emergency service communication and it may also aid revenue protection, and future passenger flow modelling.

As the system will use TFL owned kit, presumably TFL will have rights of access to any data, even if the kit is then sub-leased to individual mobile providers. So it should mean that TFL will finally have some very reliable start to finish tracking of your mobile connection. (Yes there are a few travellers out there who do not own a mobile but is suspect they are no longer statistically relevant.)

The data should show how individuals actually route through the blackhole sections. It won't take a lot more effort to then match phone data with video feeds of entry and exit gate swipes to identify the mobiles of individuals of interest (those not paying their way). So for instance if a mobile regularly enters the system at an ungated station lets say Chalfont & Latimer and exits in Westminster but with no Oyster trace roughly matching the entry/exit times it might be worth checking the CCTV, indeed a bit of specialist software investment could quickly claw back its initial cost.

The data may also allow TFL to better prepare for the events like the launch of Elizabeth Line or help real-time management of incidents.

Very slow progress by a large number of mobile connections will reveal corridors and other pinch point locations where significant human traffic jams are already happening, and provide data to show if problems have been improved or got worse.

As the money tree is likely to remain severely constrained, that data could allow limited funds to be targeted on areas where relatively small physical improvements might deliver the greatest customer benefit.

I am rather looking forward to the system going live, but it is a bit like most free stuff, people quickly assume that they have a right to expect a train service provider to do stuff which is not really about running trains. I guess TFL will eventually realise this new feature has also unleashed a new opportunity for passengers to flood social media with tweets about even the slightest delay in their journeys, and heaven knows how they will react if or when the system develops some sort of fault. Hey ho there goes progress.

Below ground communication has been available for staff and emergency services for many years by a secure radio network which will continue to be used.

It won't be free. At the moment you can log on on platforms but you need to have a suitable account.

Interestingly enough I was sitting opposite a lady from South America on a Northern line train today. She got on at West Finchley and had a very loud Skype conversation with somebody. You could hear every word of the person at the other end. Peace came after East Finchley but soon........

[londoner]

Jul 20, 2019 18:26:38 GMT Chris L said:

Below ground communication has been available for staff and emergency services for many years by a secure radio network which will continue to be used.

It won't be free. At the moment you can log on on platforms but you need to have a suitable account.

Interestingly enough I was sitting opposite a lady from South America on a Northern line train today. She got on at West Finchley and had a very loud Skype conversation with somebody. You could hear every word of the person at the other end. Peace came after East Finchley but soon........

Are you referring to the notion that users may have to pay for the 5G connection?

[will]

Anyone have any ideas as to why Waterloo and London Bridge are being excluded from the trial until final approval? Major works aren’t being completed at the stations so that shouldn’t be a reason not to and whilst Waterloo is the busiest London Bridge isn’t. Thanks ✌️

[goldenarrow]

will , I have a feeling it has something to do with the proximity to third party infrastructure in these locations that needs extra safeguarding or assurances before permission is granted to begin works. In the case of Waterloo, Network Rail are carrying out a whole host of works in Waterloo station itself including decluttering the existing cable systems that run through previously sealed parts of the station that in many cases have degraded over time.

[AndrewPSSP]

Jul 21, 2019 9:57:32 GMT londoner said:

Are you referring to the notion that users may have to pay for the 5G connection?

Perhaps some carriers will only provide within a certain plan(s). I'm sure that for some people Underground mobile connectivity will be enough of an incentive to switch, giving the carriers more £££.

[Chris L]

Jul 21, 2019 9:57:32 GMT londoner said:

Jul 20, 2019 18:26:38 GMT Chris L said:

Below ground communication has been available for staff and emergency services for many years by a secure radio network which will continue to be used.

It won't be free. At the moment you can log on on platforms but you need to have a suitable account.

Interestingly enough I was sitting opposite a lady from South America on a Northern line train today. She got on at West Finchley and had a very loud Skype conversation with somebody. You could hear every word of the person at the other end. Peace came after East Finchley but soon........

Are you referring to the notion that users may have to pay for the 5G connection?

No. TfL are selling the rights. The provider will want to get their money back.

[Chris M]

Jul 23, 2019 16:40:11 GMT Chris L said:

Jul 21, 2019 9:57:32 GMT londoner said:

Are you referring to the notion that users may have to pay for the 5G connection?

No. TfL are selling the rights. The provider will want to get their money back.

The provider may make a supplemental charge for 5G - ad hoc and/or as part of a tariff, they may sell on advertising and make money that way, there might be other methods or (possibly most likely) there will be a combination of these. It will be a commercial decision for the provider, which may or may not be constrained by the contract they have with TfL (e.g. TfL may specify that certain categories of advert are not permitted, that travel information is available free, etc)

[goldenarrow]

The pilot on the Jubilee Line Extension went live yesterday. It marks the end of one of the largest not-spots in the country although I doubt many people are up for a shouting competition with the screaming banshees of the JLE!

[Deep Level]

[Dstock7080]

Tube to get full mobile network by end of 2024,

Passengers on the London underground will have mobile coverage throughout the network by the end of 2024, the mayor of London has said.

Transport for London (TfL) said work on preparing some of the capital’s busiest stations, including Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Bank, would begin soon, and they would be among the first fully connected stations by the end of next year.

TfL has awarded a 20-year concession to BAI Communications (BAI), a global provider of 4G and 5G connected infrastructure, to counter so-called not-spots in the network.

[grumpycat]

Jun 22, 2021 7:51:40 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Tube to get full mobile network by end of 2024,

Passengers on the London underground will have mobile coverage throughout the network by the end of 2024, the mayor of London has said.

Transport for London (TfL) said work on preparing some of the capital’s busiest stations, including Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Bank, would begin soon, and they would be among the first fully connected stations by the end of next year.

TfL has awarded a 20-year concession to BAI Communications (BAI), a global provider of 4G and 5G connected infrastructure, to counter so-called not-spots in the network.

Well here comes Dom Jolly with that big phone and no more excuses about being on the tube.

[Dstock7080]

www.cityam.com/three-ee-bring-4g-tube-network/?amp=1

Mobile operators Three and EE have announced a partnership to bring 4G and 5G connectivity to the whole Tube network.
The deal, which will see the two giants join global infrastructure provider BAI Communications, will rely on a 20-year concession granted by Transport for London (TfL).

[Dstock7080]

Customers of all major networks set to have access to high-speed mobile coverage across London Tube network

Access to high-speed mobile connectivity on the Tube has taken another major step forward today, with Vodafone and Virgin Media O2 joining BAI Communications' (BAI) network, Sadiq Khan the Mayor of London confirmed today.

Customers of all four mobile network operators - Three, EE, Vodafone and Virgin Media O2 - will be able to access high-speed 4G and 5G-ready mobile connectivity across the Tube, including within the tunnels.

BAI was awarded a 20-year concession by Transport for London (TfL) in June 2021 to deliver mobile connectivity on the Underground. Once complete, customers will be able to make calls wherever they are on the Underground, check the latest travel information, keep on top of their emails, catch up on social media and live stream videos, transforming the passenger experience and securing London's transformation into a smart city.

BAI's neutral host mobile network will also host the new Emergency Services Network (ESN), which will give first responders immediate access to life-saving data, images and information in live situations and emergencies on the frontline.

Work on delivering 4G coverage across the Tube network is well underway, following the successful transfer of the previous pilot section on the eastern end of the Jubilee line to BAI earlier this year. Positive progress now means that the next five stations to get coverage - Bank, Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road, Euston, and Camden Town - will go live within the next six months. The additional connectivity within these stations will help customers visiting the city to make plans for shopping, events and socialising with friends and family in Central London across the festive season.

All stations and tunnels across the Tube network remain on course to have high-quality and uninterrupted mobile coverage. Some sections of Tube network will go live by summer 2023 - including parts of the Central line including stations and tunnels through the City and West End. TfL and BAI are also continuing to progress with delivering mobile coverage across the recently opened central section of the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Abbey Wood.

Mobile operators will also ensure continued and improved coverage via Wi-Fi on the London Underground and Elizabeth line when the network transfers to BAI in April 2023.

[londoner]

As part of the announcement:

London's Tube tunnels will host a new high-capacity fibre optic network across London which will be used to provide full fibre connectivity across the city. Our Tube stations will be the connectivity hubs and our street assets such as lighting columns and bus stops will host a network of small mobile transmitters which will bring city-wide connectivity improvement and ready London for 5G....

More than 2,000km of cabling will be installed on the network, all of which will be fitted outside of operating hours. In addition to benefitting customers, the network will host the Home Office's new Emergency Service Network used by the Police, Fire and emergency response services.

What are the implications of this in terms of maintenance of the cables? Will Openreach be in charge of maintenance, some other organisation (BAI), TFL staff or both (organisation and TFL)? What currently happens at present with the 4G/ WiFi network?

[Chris M]

I would expect that maintenance would be the responsibility of BAI, given that they have the concession to operate the network. Obviously they will need to liaise with TfL staff regarding access to the tunnels and stations (where presumably at least some equipment is located) but I would be surprised if that was significantly different to how this is done for other contractors.

[goldenarrow]

Update being put out on TFL comms this week:

“Customers travelling between Holland Park - Queensway (Central line) are now starting to see mobile coverage in ticket halls, platforms and tunnels between those stations. Coverage between Kentish Town and Archway on the Northern line will go live in the coming week. We expect all operators to offer service on live sections by spring 2023”

[gigabit]

Dec 21, 2022 14:47:24 GMT goldenarrow said:

Update being put out on TFL comms this week:

“Customers travelling between Holland Park - Queensway (Central line) are now starting to see mobile coverage in ticket halls, platforms and tunnels between those stations. Coverage between Kentish Town and Archway on the Northern line will go live in the coming week. We expect all operators to offer service on live sections by spring 2023”

Vodafone and EE live on Central Line today with O2 and Three to follow in the new year.

[t697]

A reliable source indicates 4G will be in the Elizabeth line tunnels too in due course.

[gigabit]

Any update?

Mod edit [goldenarrow]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.