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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 25, 2019 16:34:45 GMT
Various sources are now saying that a maximum of three class 378's will be allocated to the GOBLIN as an interim measure which is concurrent with what fellow members predicted. It has also been reported that City Hall have been in touch with Bombardier and secured a free month of travel for passengers once the new trains are eventually up and running. News Article: Click HereMeanwhile, another member of the class six units junior has been seen on a WCML jaunt. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 25, 2019 17:32:42 GMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jan 25, 2019 17:49:53 GMT
According to my sources a 4-car 378 will be running on the GOBLIN from Monday after Arriva came to an agreement with ASLEF but two 710s have had power problems.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 25, 2019 18:35:16 GMT
According to my sources a 4-car 378 will be running on the GOBLIN from Monday after Arriva came to an agreement with ASLEF but two 710s have had power problems. This has been confirmed in a TfL press release, which has been included in our topic dedicated to discussion of four car class 378s on the Goblin: districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/475209/thread. Can we please remain on-topic for the class 710 trains in this thread, and discuss the shortened 378s in the thread above. A number of older posts relating to the shortened 378s have now been merged into the above linked thread also. Thanks. |
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Post by fleetline on Jan 27, 2019 17:18:42 GMT
710264 arrived at Willsden on Friday. As this will be taking up valuable depot space, it suggests that Bombardier and LO/TfL are confident of overcoming issues sooner rater than later.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jan 27, 2019 21:55:46 GMT
I'm assuming that all the new units still need to accumulate their fault free miles before being handed over to Arriva Rail London. If so, is it permissible to couple units together given that the units will still run under their own power?
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Post by Chris M on Jan 27, 2019 23:41:51 GMT
If it is, I imagine that runs the risk of a failure on one unit meaning neither unit can complete its mileage run, especially if it's the leading unit.
This doesn't necessarily mean that it wont be done, it depends on how the various risks and requirements balance out.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 27, 2019 23:58:02 GMT
I'm assuming that all the new units still need to accumulate their fault free miles before being handed over to Arriva Rail London. If so, is it permissible to couple units together given that the units will still run under their own power? I can't believe they will run mileage accumulation coupled together. Surely the point is that each unit is driven *individually* and is proven to be fault free on its own? AFIAK the accumulation testing has all been on AC overhead. I assume this is because of the urgency related to GOBLIN requirements and a decision that they can cope in the short term with trains leaving Willesden depot on AC and reversing north of Willesden Junction to reach the NLL and then travel on to Gospel Oak and beyond. The 172s run on DC rails to reverse at Willesden Junction station AIUI. At some point Bombardier will have to prove to ARL that the dual voltage 710s can actually run on both AC and DC and cope with changeovers both on the move (Mitre Bridge on WLL) and when stopped (Acton Central). Such DC testing is certainly needed for use on the Watford service. Furthermore there will have to be some level of additional testing to prove coupled operation is feasible as that's necessary for West Anglia operation. I don't know the details of the mileage accumulation process but I assume that when the GOBLIN dual voltage 710s receive the go ahead for acceptance by ARL and driver training this may be a qualified acceptance in the short term given the lack of DC testing. I expect TfL have agreed this with Bombardier to shorten this phase of testing because of the GOBLIN woes. It may, though, come back to haunt them later if DC testing throws up more issues requiring software fixes.  |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 28, 2019 7:35:59 GMT
At some point Bombardier will have to prove to ARL that the dual voltage 710s can actually run on both AC and DC and cope with changeovers both on the move (Mitre Bridge on WLL) and when stopped (Acton Central). The Class 710s are not intended for use on either of those routes, are they? They will work on DC only on the Wat-Eus line, and AC only on all the other routes. Changeovers will only be needed when out of service, on their way to and from the depot. |
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Post by xplaistow on Jan 28, 2019 9:32:10 GMT
At some point Bombardier will have to prove to ARL that the dual voltage 710s can actually run on both AC and DC and cope with changeovers both on the move (Mitre Bridge on WLL) and when stopped (Acton Central). The Class 710s are not intended for use on either of those routes, are they? They will work on DC only on the Wat-Eus line, and AC only on all the other routes. Changeovers will only be needed when out of service, on their way to and from the depot. Actually, a small fleet of 6 5-car 710s has been ordered for the NLL/WLL in order to free up a few more 378s for the ELL. The 710s are themselves unsuitable for the ELL due to the lack of end doors for evacuation. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 28, 2019 10:17:11 GMT
The Class 710s are not intended for use on either of those routes, are they? They will work on DC only on the Wat-Eus line, and AC only on all the other routes. Changeovers will only be needed when out of service, on their way to and from the depot. Actually, a small fleet of 6 5-car 710s has been ordered for the NLL/WLL in order to free up a few more 378s for the ELL. The 710s are themselves unsuitable for the ELL due to the lack of end doors for evacuation. Has that order now been confirmed? In any case, the 4-car version currently being tested would not be expected to work on the NLL/WLL. |
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 28, 2019 13:26:40 GMT
Presumably, the bay road at Gospel Oak is the overriding factor preventing 5 car trains on the GOBLIN, given the location of the turnout into the bay, the bridge over Gordon House Road and the proximity of the junction between the NLL and GOBLIN at the other end? This is presumably still the case as when it was built in 1981, Gospel Oak mechanical SB still existed in the fork of the junction at the end of the bay, but as that burnt down in about 1985, the space it once took would in theory be available. Clearly, the best solution for maintenance would be one common fleet with the rest of the NLL/WLL/DC? The GOBLIN has always suffered to a greater or lesser extent, from a non-standard fleet with adjacent lines and this is sadly set to continue, albeit that the introduction of new maximum length electric trains is a significant improvement.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 28, 2019 13:48:53 GMT
At some point Bombardier will have to prove to ARL that the dual voltage 710s can actually run on both AC and DC and cope with changeovers both on the move (Mitre Bridge on WLL) and when stopped (Acton Central). The Class 710s are not intended for use on either of those routes, are they? They will work on DC only on the Wat-Eus line, and AC only on all the other routes. Changeovers will only be needed when out of service, on their way to and from the depot. As you know a supplementary order was placed for extra trains for NLL / WLL services plus extras for the Barking Riverside service. The point still remains that functionality will have to be proven at some point. I didn't specify what batch of trains or a timing just that it had to be done. The further point remains that even if a switchover is made out of passenger service you still have to test that functionality before you sign off the trains as functional as per spec and contract. I can't believe ARL are going to permanently split the allocation of dual voltage trains to the same 8 always for GOBLIN services and the balance for the Watford DC route. They will want the flexibility to mix allocations as necessary. I'd also argue that Bombardier would want the voltage switching functionality tested now so any issues are found now and can be resolved rather than storing up another issue to be fixed on a future batch of trains. I assume they've done some level of testing at Old Dalby already with 4 car units. |
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Post by phil on Jan 28, 2019 18:27:46 GMT
I'm assuming that all the new units still need to accumulate their fault free miles before being handed over to Arriva Rail London. If so, is it permissible to couple units together given that the units will still run under their own power? I can't believe they will run mileage accumulation coupled together. Surely the point is that each unit is driven *individually* and is proven to be fault free on its own? Indeed it is BUT the only thing not being tested when two units are ruining in multiple is one driving cab on each unit. Things like the traction power system, door control systems,air conditioning / heating, on board computers, etc are individual to each unit and as such will be fully tested even when running in multiple - and you could also say the running in multiple also additionally proves the couplers between the two units are reliable
Its worth remembering that the point of these mileage runs are to test the train as a whole, not just what may be present in the cab. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 30, 2019 13:28:20 GMT
Colour me not at all surprised. They can't run those 3 4-car 378s forever without maintenance breaks. The service will be very vulnerable to any failure / breakdown / accident. There are suggestions the weekend service may fall to hourly or be withdrawn completely to allow the 378s to be maintained.   Just listened to the relevant part of today's TfL Board webcast about this. Here are the key points. - TfL have had to adjust the maintenance schedules on the 378s to support the release of three trains. - A class 710 is not likely to be available for driver training until the end of February. - Even if a train is available there is still ongoing software development needed which may take at least a further month. Another version has to be released and then a train has to go for final ORR certification. This confirms a comment that someone from Rail Magazine made a while back. - Trains cannot be used in passenger service until the ORR sign off is achieved. - TfL were pretty clear that all this means the GOBLIN service reduces to half hourly long before any 710s enter service. - There was a final caveat that all of the above is subject to Bombardier's ability to develop software in line with the anticipated schedule. What a mess.  |
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Post by fleetline on Feb 1, 2019 15:27:48 GMT
I can't believe they will run mileage accumulation coupled together. Surely the point is that each unit is driven *individually* and is proven to be fault free on its own? Indeed it is BUT the only thing not being tested when two units are ruining in multiple is one driving cab on each unit. Things like the traction power system, door control systems,air conditioning / heating, on board computers, etc are individual to each unit and as such will be fully tested even when running in multiple - and you could also say the running in multiple also additionally proves the couplers between the two units are reliable
Its worth remembering that the point of these mileage runs are to test the train as a whole, not just what may be present in the cab. Actually you. The 387 fleets were all tested in multiple. You just shut the units around between test runs to ensure both cabs get time to work. Hell the 387/1 were tested in 12 car formation. However that does come with a huge risk. One fault and both trains mileage is reset so one fault causes twice the delay. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 11, 2019 17:25:16 GMT
Has there been any recent sign of 710s out and about accumulating mileage in test mode or have further issues appeared and they are back to square one with test mileage?
Just in case anyone feels that 710s are the only Bombardier product with issues (with software and insufficient testing significant among the concerns) I spotted a very recent article regarding problems with the introduction of a fleet of double deck trains ordered in 2010 and due for service in 2013 on Swiss SBB long distance services. Of the 62 trains ordered, thus far barely 12 have appeared in some sort of service, with reports of in service failures with these trains causing delays and consternation given the Swiss expectation that trains should work and be on time. Perhaps no surprise it appears that the in service trains are routinely carrying a roving technician to tackle frequent issues with doors and other software glitches.
I am beginning to wonder just how long it will be before the first 710 will operate in passenger carrying service on Goblin. I am tempted to put a fiver on 31 December but which year?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 11, 2019 19:04:59 GMT
Has there been any recent sign of 710s out and about accumulating mileage in test mode or have further issues appeared and they are back to square one with test mileage? Just in case anyone feels that 710s are the only Bombardier product with issues (with software and insufficient testing significant among the concerns) I spotted a very recent article regarding problems with the introduction of a fleet of double deck trains ordered in 2010 and due for service in 2013 on Swiss SBB long distance services. Of the 62 trains ordered, thus far barely 12 have appeared in some sort of service, with reports of in service failures with these trains causing delays and consternation given the Swiss expectation that trains should work and be on time. Perhaps no surprise it appears that the in service trains are routinely carrying a roving technician to tackle frequent issues with doors and other software glitches. I am beginning to wonder just how long it will be before the first 710 will operate in passenger carrying service on Goblin. I am tempted to put a fiver on 31 December but which year? I've just had a quick scan on Realtimetrains for last week. There appear to have been some trips up and down the WCML over several days. Impossible to say which unit(s) were involved. Trips on the GOBLIN itself have all been cancelled over the last week. I haven't checked West Anglia to see if something has been running out there. I've not seen anything positive being said anywhere. The usual "informed sources" on Twitter seem to be universally negative about the prospects for the trains. No one knows if a unit is close to achieving the fault free target or if trains have suffered failures and the mileage has been reset so the accumulation has had to start again. One source suggested it may be another four months before a train could be delivered. If that proves to be true it will almost be early Autumn before trains could run in passenger service given the lead time for driver training. I'd like to believe it won't be as late as this but I think I'm probably deluding myself. In the meantime the M-F service will be down to half hourly in around 4 weeks time. No one knows what will happen to the weekend service (except perhaps TfL and ARL but they'll not be saying anything until the last minute). I think that if the service does collapse as expected then there will be a political backlash. Assembly Members are getting noticeably tetchy and those passengers who do comment on Twitter are very p****d off. That will get worse when half the service vanishes. |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 11, 2019 19:15:05 GMT
Realistically do TfL have any options other than replacement/supplementary buses if the trains are not ready? The half-hourly M-F service with 378s probably isn't sustainable long term, the 172s are not available, 313/317/319 units are not suitable, non-OPO units are not suitable, 230s aren't cleared yet, ...
I think that politically they've just got be vocal about it being Bombardier's fault not TfL's. Not that this helps the passengers.
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Post by brooklynbound on Feb 11, 2019 19:58:49 GMT
It's not just TfL and SBB having problems with new Bombardier kit... SNCF has stopped accepting the Regio 2N rolling stock being delivered for Paris suburban services. It confirms that it has stopped making payments for the trains. It is reported that 8 out of 32 sets have major problems, including doors failing to open or being locked shut due to ‘badly installed’ wiring. Serious problems are also reported with the pantographs, which are wearing rapidly – though Bombardier has blamed SNCF for this. More at outremanche916347724.wordpress.com/2019/02/02/sncf-stops-accepting-new-bombardier-rolling-stock/ |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 11, 2019 21:15:08 GMT
Realistically do TfL have any options other than replacement/supplementary buses if the trains are not ready? The half-hourly M-F service with 378s probably isn't sustainable long term, the 172s are not available, 313/317/319 units are not suitable, non-OPO units are not suitable, 230s aren't cleared yet, ... I think that politically they've just got be vocal about it being Bombardier's fault not TfL's. Not that this helps the passengers. I don't think there is any rail based fallback plan once we get to 3 378s in service. The problems came up at the Assembly Plenary on Transport last week. The Mayor and Commissioner are questioned by the full Assembly in those meetings. All we got was the "party line" of the Mayor and Commissioner "talking at the very highest levels with Bombardier" to express their concerns and demand a solution. We got the "we are converting existing trains that offer a bit more capacity than the "old" (ahem) diesel trains even if they only run half as frequently" and "we've negotiated a month's free travel from Bombardier". Oh and "We are very sorry about the delays to the new trains and the inconvenience to passengers". These are all the stock phrases from TfL so no veering away from the agreed line and absolutely no hint whatsoever when a train might enter service or what it will take for someone to cancel the order or do something more radical. The Commissioner specifically ruled out the use of old electric trains for the well known and much discussed "no body mounted CCTV or screens in the cab" reason. So no change whatsoever.  |
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Post by jpd888 on Feb 12, 2019 11:12:43 GMT
Is it time to go cap in hand to TSGN to see if they have any 377 2XX units going spare? Just a thought...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 12, 2019 17:40:58 GMT
Is it time to go cap in hand to TSGN to see if they have any 377 2XX units going spare? Just a thought... Have they got cameras for DOO? |
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 12, 2019 20:06:02 GMT
I thought all Class 377 were fitted with external CCTV.
Only the 2xx units were delivered as 4 car sets with pantographs. Wikipedia has several images of class 377 units including a Southern 2xx unit. Apart from the livery and the folding gangway fitted to the driving cars to allow multiple unit operation, they appear very similar to the 378s already in use on GOBLIN.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 12, 2019 22:13:50 GMT
I thought all Class 377 were fitted with external CCTV. Only the 2xx units were delivered as 4 car sets with pantographs. Wikipedia has several images of class 377 units including a Southern 2xx unit. Apart from the livery and the folding gangway fitted to the driving cars to allow multiple unit operation, they appear very similar to the 378s already in use on GOBLIN. Under the circumstances, if it were possible to borrow some of these (with Bombardier meeting the hiring costs) then it would be wonderful.
All 'ifs'....
Simon
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Post by snoggle on Feb 13, 2019 0:14:05 GMT
Is it time to go cap in hand to TSGN to see if they have any 377 2XX units going spare? Just a thought... And who is effectively in charge of the TSGN "franchise"? Oh yes Mayor Khan's best friend - Mr Failing of Grayling. I think it's already clear that it will be a snowy day in hell before the DfT lift a finger to help the Mayor out of his difficulties with these 710s. I think it is the case that Minister Andrew Jones was recently "on the record" as rejecting any prospect of flexing the East Midlands Trains (EMT) and West Midlands Trains (WMT) franchise obligations that require the 172s to go to WMT to then release class 153s (I think) to EMT. His remark was rounded off by saying that the Overground is the Mayor's responsibility and it is for him to fix any problems. While that might look harsh what's the point of devolution if it's a one sided deal where any upside is down to devolution / the devolved authority whereas any problem is for someone else to fix? If you take on the responsibility it's for failings and problems as much as it is for success. I actually don't think TfL want to go down the road of taking on trains from anyone else. It's far too late now. They're a year late in responding to what is about to become a crisis. It would also be a "seller's market" which means TfL would struggle to get an acceptable leasing cost out of anyone even if suitable trains were available. They'd be over a barrel and they simply don't have the financial flexibility to cope with it. They remain stuck with having to cope with whatever Bombardier throw at them or, more pertinently, *don't* throw at them. We've done all the rolling stock technical issues to death in other threads / posts so I'm not going there. |
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Post by Antje on Feb 13, 2019 16:53:56 GMT
And who is effectively in charge of the TSGN "franchise"? Oh yes Mayor Khan's best friend - Mr Failing of Grayling. I think it's already clear that it will be a snowy day in hell before the DfT lift a finger to help the Mayor out of his difficulties with these 710s. But it snows in Hell every winter … Speaking of hell, I think the only question in the minds the GOBLIN commuters is when the 710s will enter service, so that the fear of the line closing due to lack of rolling stock dissipates. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 13, 2019 18:28:50 GMT
And who is effectively in charge of the TSGN "franchise"? Oh yes Mayor Khan's best friend - Mr Failing of Grayling. I think it's already clear that it will be a snowy day in hell before the DfT lift a finger to help the Mayor out of his difficulties with these 710s. But it snows in Hell every winter … Speaking of hell, I think the only question in the minds the GOBLIN commuters is when the 710s will enter service, so that the fear of the line closing due to lack of rolling stock dissipates. Well yes. However the failure of various parties to get the trains into service causes a whole load of other questions about the standard of the service now and into the future. |
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Post by xplaistow on Feb 19, 2019 11:58:05 GMT
This is only indirectly related to the 710s but, out of interest, how many of the diesel 172s are currently left and when are their leaving dates?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 19, 2019 13:24:55 GMT
This is only indirectly related to the 710s but, out of interest, how many of the diesel 172s are currently left and when are their leaving dates? Based on the user group's twitter feed then 2 more 172s went off lease last weekend. This leaves 3 172s and 3 4-car 378s to provide the service - 378 209 was supposed to be in service from 18/2/19. There are no spare trains now. The remaining 3 172s apparently all go off lease on 15 March 2019. At that point the 378s will be left to provide an assumed half hourly M-F service although TfL have not confirmed this service level. No one is clear about the weekend service level given the 378s will need some routine maintenance attention. We could be down to an hourly or no weekend service after mid March. Suggestions in "another place" are that Bombardier are now up version 30 of the software for the 710s. This should be loaded to the trains for testing. There is also a suggestion (note that term) that TfL have decided to "dump" the acceptance criteria for the 710s to allow driver training to commence in the near future. Clearly though they can't ignore the acceptance criteria in terms of passenger service - the trains have to be demonstrated to be safe and compliant before ORR will allow their use by passengers. This is obviously speculative so people should treat it with due caution until it is confirmed one way or the other. |
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