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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 15, 2018 12:14:41 GMT
Willesden depot to Goblin can be done on ac-only by
- to Barking via Primrose Hill, Stratford and Woodgrange Park
- to Gospel Oak by reversing in Wembley yard and using the normally freight-only lines bypassing Willesden Junction station,
- to Gospel Oak by reversal at Camden Road and Hampstead Heath.
Willesden Junction Low Level is, as far as I recall, dc only - so reversal there would need to use the 3rd rail.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 14:41:01 GMT
Willesden depot to Goblin can be done on ac-only by to Gospel Oak by reversing in Wembley yard and using the normally freight-only lines bypassing Willesden Junction station, - . That’s the way the 710s been getting to Goblin from Willesden TMD. They go as far as Willesden Reception Sdgs (next to Royal Mail Distribution Centre) and reverse there. |
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Post by stapler on Oct 16, 2018 6:19:21 GMT
Paths available on the WCML? I thought the prime reason for HS2 was that there were no paths available on the WCML?
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 16, 2018 6:42:38 GMT
Paths available on the WCML? I thought the prime reason for HS2 was that there were no paths available on the WCML? I guess there’s the odd few freight paths that might be available but nothing to increase the frequency of passenger services... One thing that intrigues me though is that if these new units have done 1500 fault free miles, but haven’t been tested on 3rd Rail (I’m assuming they can use 3rd Rail or OLE??) then how can you claim that to be fault free - or is that specifically just around being able to actually move as a train does? Colin |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 16, 2018 7:10:03 GMT
I thought the prime reason for HS2 was that there were no paths available on the WCML? Not at times many people want to travel - these mileage accumulation runs are done in the wee small hours |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 16, 2018 7:42:56 GMT
One thing that intrigues me though is that if these new units have done 1500 fault free miles, but haven’t been tested on 3rd Rail (I’m assuming they can use 3rd Rail or OLE??) then how can you claim that to be fault free - or is that specifically just around being able to actually move as a train does? Colin Mileage accumulation is only part of the test programme. They can be tested to see if they can work on dc without going far from Willesden depot. Although I understand that some at least will do a run or two on the Brighton Main Line |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 16, 2018 8:07:26 GMT
One thing that intrigues me though is that if these new units have done 1500 fault free miles, but haven’t been tested on 3rd Rail (I’m assuming they can use 3rd Rail or OLE??) then how can you claim that to be fault free - or is that specifically just around being able to actually move as a train does? I think that what they have is 1500 fault free miles of running under OHLE, with xx miles of fault free running on third rail to be done separately. Given that there is no third rail on the Goblin the OHLE testing is the most important. The current units on the Watford DC are only going to be transferred within LO and used to strengthen services rather than replace existing units there isn't the same time pressure to get third rail working. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 16, 2018 15:25:53 GMT
Willesden depot to Goblin can be done on ac-only by - to Barking via Primrose Hill, Stratford and Woodgrange Park - to Gospel Oak by reversing in Wembley yard and using the normally freight-only lines bypassing Willesden Junction station, - to Gospel Oak by reversal at Camden Road and Hampstead Heath. Willesden Junction Low Level is, as far as I recall, dc only - so reversal there would need to use the 3rd rail. yes, dc only - albeit with two juice rails! |
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Post by regp41 on Oct 21, 2018 16:08:22 GMT
Does anyone know if any more units have completed their 1500 mile fault free running?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 23, 2018 10:14:22 GMT
Looks like another small delay before the trains enter service. Update by Arriva to London Travelwatch Board meeting this morning. EDIT - Arriva Rail London added a clarification in the meeting Sigh!  SECOND EDIT - Another clarification (!) from Arriva Rail London via London Travelwatch. Not sure it actually means anything though! |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 23, 2018 20:25:04 GMT
A little more time for my camera to film diesels... I've just discovered some late 1980's footage at Barking (Network SouthEast and plain blue liveries) and I find myself needing some Goblin footage at this station. Then I'll be ready for the new trains to enter service!
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Post by regp41 on Nov 5, 2018 16:59:27 GMT
I read elsewhere there were problems with the fault free testing runs and that
“The last run was on the night of 27th October. Nothing has run since then.”
I don’t know how true this might be but does anyone know what the current situation is?
Ray
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Post by snoggle on Nov 6, 2018 0:25:25 GMT
I read elsewhere there were problems with the fault free testing runs and that “The last run was on the night of 27th October. Nothing has run since then.” I don’t know how true this might be but does anyone know what the current situation is? Ray Not really. I've seen sharply conflicting views elsewhere. Someone was adamant that the testing has not stopped which *implies* that the aim was to get one train out there, see how it performed and then take the necessary action to resolve any issues or bugs that may have been apparent but did not actually stop the train performing its runs. Therefore you could assume (note that word!) that fixes are being done now and will need to be uploaded to a train for further testing. I can sort of see the logic in Bombardier wanting to debug the trains as much as possible before live service given the criticality of them working well on the GOBLIN given the diesels will leave London. However the lack of clarity from anywhere plus the fact we are in November is not going to do anything to stop speculation and frustration being the main sentiment buzzing around the airwaves. It really is time for some clear, unambiguous information from TfL about what is being done to get the new trains into service and when that will happen. They *must* have some sort of idea as I can't believe they're sitting back in the vague hope that Bombardier and Arriva might manage to get a new train into passenger service sometime whenever. Given there MUST be a massive commercial dispute brewing around all of this on top of the one about the electrification works and who's responsible for that mess I'd hope TfL were VERY on the case given it's their money that's at risk here. I'd also expect the DfT to be asking some pertinent questions given they funded most of the electrification work. |
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Post by jukes on Nov 7, 2018 17:43:18 GMT
I read elsewhere there were problems with the fault free testing runs and that “The last run was on the night of 27th October. Nothing has run since then.” I don’t know how true this might be but does anyone know what the current situation is? Ray Not really. I've seen sharply conflicting views elsewhere. Someone was adamant that the testing has not stopped which *implies* that the aim was to get one train out there, see how it performed and then take the necessary action to resolve any issues or bugs that may have been apparent but did not actually stop the train performing its runs. Therefore you could assume (note that word!) that fixes are being done now and will need to be uploaded to a train for further testing. I can sort of see the logic in Bombardier wanting to debug the trains as much as possible before live service given the criticality of them working well on the GOBLIN given the diesels will leave London. However the lack of clarity from anywhere plus the fact we are in November is not going to do anything to stop speculation and frustration being the main sentiment buzzing around the airwaves. It really is time for some clear, unambiguous information from TfL about what is being done to get the new trains into service and when that will happen. They *must* have some sort of idea as I can't believe they're sitting back in the vague hope that Bombardier and Arriva might manage to get a new train into passenger service sometime whenever. Given there MUST be a massive commercial dispute brewing around all of this on top of the one about the electrification works and who's responsible for that mess I'd hope TfL were VERY on the case given it's their money that's at risk here. I'd also expect the DfT to be asking some pertinent questions given they funded most of the electrification work. Everything has gone very quiet! Nobody has apparently seen a 710 on test let alone detected one on RTT for almost 2 weeks! If there are problems then the Mileage Accumulation tests may well have to start all over again from zero. There is even talk now of a second 172 disappearing. TfL are tight-lipped, assuming they actually know what's going on (I hear they don't and simply limp on day to day). ARL are quiet after Stella Rogers statement to LTW had to be clarified a couple of hours later by another statement that effectively cancelled the first one out and simply stoked up even more ambiguity! Bombardier just smile and say nothing. The only people actually enjoying this are Greater Anglia in the realisation that a lot of these problems would also affect their new Class 720s so if the 710s are the guinea pigs so much the better!!! There is also even some unattributable talk of some technical problems with a section(s?) of the OHLE on GOB. So even if the 710s were available they might not be able to run! I hear TfL are considering mass bike hire as a substitute if there end up being no trains for GOB! |
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Post by dmncf on Nov 7, 2018 18:41:25 GMT
I hear TfL are considering mass bike hire as a substitute if there end up being no trains for GOB! That will be fine for the sections with concrete slab track, but hard work on the sections with sleepers and ballast! ;-) It's disappointing that TfL is allowing this information vacuum. It feels like TfL's communications team isn't able to handle anything that isn't a good news story. In my opinion TfL should tell the public the basic facts about the 710 introduction and the 172 lease situation, including saying that some things are out of their control. Answers to FAQs would be valuable, such as 'Could the new trains be introduced with guards until the software is fixed?' and 'Why can't spare trains from elsewhere such as TfL Rail be used?'. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Nov 12, 2018 23:25:51 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Nov 13, 2018 10:46:06 GMT
More than optimistic. I've read that letter and got a copy of the same thing from my Assembly Member yesterday. I am not sure I actually believe what is being said. Only one unit has run on the mainline based on reports and observations. It may have got to 1,000 miles run *but* it's the only unit to have done so. The only other trains that have run were pre-delivery on the national test track and in France - that can't count for the purposes of achieving hand over to the operator. Also what driver training? There are no trains handed over. Are they really saying that some drivers, and hopefully driver instructors, are now having a "play" on the simulator? If so then please say it. The briefing note to Assembly Members begs as many questions as it answers. And as for cutting the weekend service - how wonderfully marvellous for the passengers! The real question to ask is why the reliability of the 172s has seemingly fallen off a cliff since Arriva took over? Is this because the units have been moved on to a "do minimum, spend minimum" regime prior to their departure? In effect someone is gaming the performance regime in that they've decided to save on operating costs and dump the problem on passengers who have delayed and overcrowded journeys and Arriva who take the financial hit for cancellations (assuming they've not been granted a waiver on this!). Lots and lots of questions that need answers.  |
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Post by stapler on Nov 13, 2018 14:34:14 GMT
They'll probably introduce it on Christmas Day..... |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Nov 13, 2018 17:28:49 GMT
...The real question to ask is why the reliability of the 172s has seemingly fallen off a cliff since Arriva took over? In effect someone is gaming the performance regime in that they've decided to save on operating costs and dump the problem on passengers who have delayed and overcrowded journeys and Arriva who take the financial hit for cancellations (assuming they've not been granted a waiver on this!).... They'll probably introduce it on Christmas Day..... "Peace on earth, and mercy mild, God and sinners reconciled." We hope. 🤞🤞 |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 14, 2018 22:41:30 GMT
The revised weekend timetable starts this week but there is no detail other than this less than helpful pile of rubbish on the TfL Status Page for London Overground for this weekend.
They've actually changed this since yesterday when it referred to 15-45 minute gaps!
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Post by silenthunter on Nov 15, 2018 16:51:29 GMT
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 15, 2018 17:40:12 GMT
The status page now has been updated with specific service details which has been simplified for easier reading.
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Post by jukes on Nov 15, 2018 18:12:21 GMT
...The real question to ask is why the reliability of the 172s has seemingly fallen off a cliff since Arriva took over? In effect someone is gaming the performance regime in that they've decided to save on operating costs and dump the problem on passengers who have delayed and overcrowded journeys and Arriva who take the financial hit for cancellations (assuming they've not been granted a waiver on this!).... They'll probably introduce it on Christmas Day..... "Peace on earth, and mercy mild, God and sinners reconciled." We hope. 🤞🤞 Just to put this into context. The decision to surrender the lease on the 172s was taken earlier this year by TfL on the not unreasonable assumption that the 710s would be in service well before now. One unit went to WMT a few weeks ago and another followed a few days ago. That leave 6 units for 6 diagrams. If you flog your trains to death to try and cover everything then failures will occur more frequently. As this is a concession not a franchise all higher decisions are made by TfL. ARL are trying to do their best to cope with a situation NOT of their making. There will be no penalty charges since the body that would penalise ARL is the very body (TfL) that has caused the problem in the first place!!! The issue now is getting the 710s in service before 31 Dec when the the remaining 172s vanish to WMT. |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 15, 2018 20:57:46 GMT
very sad state of affairs. as its the weekend cant they even use some Class 378s? - even if some doors need to be locked closed and the train needs a driver and a pilot (for the signalling)?
After all, we have seen proof (on YouTube) that Class 378s are allowed to ply this route!
Failing that, a 4-TC with electric loco?
Anything to avoid cancelling trains!
Would a timetable re-write for a basic 20 minute service be possible (are there enough trains for this?)
Simon
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Post by silenthunter on Nov 15, 2018 21:28:44 GMT
You'd need to roster (and pay) at least four more people for that operation. Also, a 4TC is a slam door unit without CDL I believe, which are banned from regular passenger service in the UK.
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Post by xplaistow on Nov 16, 2018 0:32:48 GMT
Would a timetable re-write for a basic 20 minute service be possible (are there enough trains for this?) Since the end-to-end journey time is about 37 minutes, they would need to have turnaround times of about 3 minutes each end to run a 20 minute service with only 4 trains (which seems to be the allocation to the reduced service). |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 16, 2018 4:38:36 GMT
According to my source at LO if the 710s aren't ready by 31 December there will be a replacement bus service on the Goblin but TfL won't announce it until they have to.
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Post by alpinejohn on Nov 16, 2018 12:21:39 GMT
So politically we are still expected to believe that by the end December (when all the remaining diesels leave Goblin) that there will be enough 710s cleared for service, with enough drivers suitably trained, and enough maintenance staff and facilities ready to keep the Goblin fully operational?? Really?
Why do I get an ominous feeling of deja vu?
Despite months of industry observers suggesting things were not going well, it took ages before there was an official admission that the Elizabeth Line opening would be delayed. Quickly followed by the usual games of political points scoring and blame avoidance, and of course someone saying .. I have only just been told ...
So how long will be it before someone finally admits the 710 introduction on Goblin will get kicked well into 2019 and in the interim the line will revert to buses for yet another indeterminant period? Which will doubtless be followed by yet another bout of political points scoring, blame avoidance and presumably once again some saying "I have only just been told"?
Given how important and busy this line has become to this part of London - perhaps it is about time someone in TFL plucks up the courage to provide the Mayor with an honest briefing on where things really stand rather than wishful thinking..
Hey Ho - political games - got to love them.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 16, 2018 12:46:35 GMT
"Peace on earth, and mercy mild, God and sinners reconciled." We hope. 🤞🤞 Just to put this into context. The decision to surrender the lease on the 172s was taken earlier this year by TfL on the not unreasonable assumption that the 710s would be in service well before now. One unit went to WMT a few weeks ago and another followed a few days ago. That leave 6 units for 6 diagrams. If you flog your trains to death to try and cover everything then failures will occur more frequently. As this is a concession not a franchise all higher decisions are made by TfL. ARL are trying to do their best to cope with a situation NOT of their making. There will be no penalty charges since the body that would penalise ARL is the very body (TfL) that has caused the problem in the first place!!! The issue now is getting the 710s in service before 31 Dec when the the remaining 172s vanish to WMT. Yes well except that AIUI the first 172 released is sat in Ilford Depot going precisely nowhere. It's not even clear if any work is being done to it. Ditto the second unit. There are other pertinent questions here such as - whose decision was it to delay much needed overhaul works? - why were overhauls delayed? Was it just to save money? - whose decision was it to not negotiate a phased overhaul with mechanical attention first and internal refurb / toilet fitment later? Did anyone talk to West Midlands Trains and the leasing company about this? - what happens when, AIUI, the current lease for the 172s runs out on 31 December 2018? Nothing that has been said by TfL or the LOTrain project people covers this risk. In fact the statements are so vague about the 710s that it is very unlikely, taken at face value, that more than 1 or 2 710s will be operating for more than 1 - 3 trips on weekdays only by the end of December. Do we have no service whatsoever come 1 January 2019? Not expecting you to have these answers but someone in authority does NEED to answer them along with plenty others. There needs to be a proper investigation into this whole debacle and who took what decisions and when. I think it is extremely convenient that Arriva Rail London are feeling no heat over any of this. I assume Bombardier aren't suffering any payment deductions either as a result of the decrepit mechanical state of the 172s. It's in situations like this that contracts and performance regimes fall to pieces with no incentive on anyone to do anything properly. And I say that as someone who *ran* a very complex performance regime for a long time. |
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Post by Chris M on Nov 16, 2018 12:53:55 GMT
(Three embedded tweets above) Well for me the first and third displayed but not the second! For anyone else who didn't get the full set: 123 |
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