Class 710 Delivery / Entry to Service

[rincew1nd]

Testing continues...

Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display.

[stapler]

What's the best estimate for entry to service, if testing doesn't reveal too many snags?

[snoggle]

Oct 8, 2018 16:39:40 GMT stapler said:

What's the best estimate for entry to service, if testing doesn't reveal too many snags?

The line user group have suggested that we might see the first one in service by late November with others through December. However it is very dependent on the trains achieving their fault free mileage accumulation to allow formal handover to Arriva then a pile of other activities including driver training / familiarisation (4 days per driver I believe). Clearly you need a certain level of trained drivers in place before you put a new train into service so as to avoid a train being taken oos due to no (trained) driver available. Let's just hope that Bombardier have got the trains into decent shape and things go smoothly. I am encouraged that test runs are now happening after such a long wait.

[cudsn15]

"...Including a whistle from the driver *very* quietly at 2am in the morning! "

Is this possible? Do whistles have volume controls? Are there regulations which determine if whistles can be blown after 11PM on the railways like vehicle horns on the road?

[rincew1nd]

Oct 8, 2018 18:41:19 GMT cudsn15 said:

"...Including a whistle from the driver *very* quietly at 2am in the morning! "

Is this possible? Do whistles have volume controls? Are there regulations which determine if whistles can be blown after 11PM on the railways like vehicle horns on the road?

I'm not sure if there are any regulations imposed by external bodies, however there may well be management instructions on the matter.

It's very easy to have a whistle produce differing volumes by simply restricting the air (or steam ) flow. It's possible that the cab whistle controls have a loud and soft setting.

[dazz285]

If it's anything like the 378's then it might be the depot whistle?

[Chris M]

Oct 10, 2018 1:41:59 GMT nopixar said:

You can control the volume of your traditional horn by how much you deflect the lever. Particularly useful when you have P-way on the track when you have stopped in a station and they are relatively close. They very much appreciate not being blasted into next week by a full blast

I was once on Bristol Parkway station, walking back towards the centre of the platform having photographed the front of a HST reversing east-west in the westbound platform, reviewing the photos I'd just taken. As I was about to pass the cab the driver sounded the horn at full blast. I don't know whether this was part of opening up the cab or specifically for my benefit, but it's a good job I was behind the yellow line as I jumped out of my skin!

[Dom K]

More 710 testing

[rincew1nd]

Oct 10, 2018 21:55:54 GMT Dom K said:

More 710 testing

Departing Willesden: "There are no lavatories on this train. The next station is Crewe (sorry)."

[cudsn15]

Probably the fastest it will ever go - unless it needs to go back up to Crewe at some point.

[goldenarrow]

710265 on a similar jaunt up the WCML seen here at Bletchley

[flippyff]

There's a headline on Transport Briefing dated 11th October 2018 which starts "Train manufacturer Bombardier has obtained approval from Network Rail to introduce the Class 710 London Overground Aventra into..." unfortunately the rest of it is behind a paywall, hopefully the next words are "passenger service"?

None of the other rail related news sites I look at seem to have an reference to this.


Simon

[Deleted]

The other title over there is "Electric GOBlin Overground trains signed for service" - so clearly it's a go ahead.

[snoggle]

Oct 12, 2018 19:42:30 GMT flippyff said:

There's a headline on Transport Briefing dated 11th October 2018 which starts "Train manufacturer Bombardier has obtained approval from Network Rail to introduce the Class 710 London Overground Aventra into..." unfortunately the rest of it is behind a paywall, hopefully the next words are "passenger service"?

None of the other rail related news sites I look at seem to have an reference to this.

Simon

I suspect no one is jumping up and down yet as the trains aren't handed over to Arriva Rail London until they achieve their required 2,000 (?) mile fault free mileage accumulation. At present it seems to be 710 265 which is doing all the work. I suspect that if that does achieve handover then that unlocks the next stage of activities and gives Bombardier some confidence on getting more trains into mileage accumulation. I haven't seen any signs of testing on the Brighton Main Line yet for third rail testing so still some way to go. Nonetheless it is nice to see some progress.

[Deleted]

Would each train be required to reach X number of miles to be used in passenger service, or just a few to as proof of concept?

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2018 11:55:32 GMT @luacton said:

Would each train be required to reach X number of miles to be used in passenger service, or just a few to as proof of concept?

Each train needs to achieve 2000 fault free miles before LO/Arriva Rail London can accept them.

[rincew1nd]

Oct 13, 2018 12:54:16 GMT @juliang said:

Oct 13, 2018 11:55:32 GMT @luacton said:

Would each train be required to reach X number of miles to be used in passenger service, or just a few to as proof of concept?

Each train needs to achieve 2000 fault free miles before LO/Arriva Rail London can accept them.

Roughly equivalent to 90 round trips on the GOBLIN.

[norbitonflyer]

Oct 13, 2018 14:42:44 GMT rincew1nd said:

Oct 13, 2018 12:54:16 GMT @juliang said:

Each train needs to achieve 2000 fault free miles before LO/Arriva Rail London can accept them.

Roughly equivalent to 90 round trips on the GOBLIN.

Or ten trips to Crewe and back. How many such trips can be done in one night?

[snoggle]

Oct 14, 2018 8:09:18 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Oct 13, 2018 14:42:44 GMT rincew1nd said:

Roughly equivalent to 90 round trips on the GOBLIN.

Or ten trips to Crewe and back. How many such trips can be done in one night?

The overnight WCML runs seem to involve Willesden depot to Crewe then a round trip to Rugby then back to Willesden Depot.

[regp41]

Oct 14, 2018 8:39:30 GMT snoggle said:

Oct 14, 2018 8:09:18 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Or ten trips to Crewe and back. How many such trips can be done in one night?

The overnight WCML runs seem to involve Willesden depot to Crewe then a round trip to Rugby then back to Willesden Depot.

I guess thats a round trip of about 500 miles by road, would I be correct in thinking railway mileage be similar?

[goldenarrow]

Oct 14, 2018 11:25:23 GMT regp41 said:

Oct 14, 2018 8:39:30 GMT snoggle said:

The overnight WCML runs seem to involve Willesden depot to Crewe then a round trip to Rugby then back to Willesden Depot.

I guess thats a round trip of about 500 miles by road, would I be correct in thinking railway mileage be similar?

It's about 300 track miles if I've read this correctly being Willesden-Crewe-Rugby-Willesden.

[Chris M]

Based on the RailMiles routing from Willseden Junction (low level) station to Crewe station return + Crewe station to Rugby station return, the trains should rack up just over 456 miles in a night. If the routing is actually Willesden-Crewe-Rugby-Willesden then it is just under 306 miles.

As the routing used is the shortest between any two points, this figure will be an approximate minimum.

[snoggle]

Oct 14, 2018 13:12:15 GMT Chris M said:

Based on the RailMiles routing from Willseden Junction (low level) station to Crewe station return + Crewe station to Rugby station return, the trains should rack up just over 456 miles in a night. If the routing is actually Willesden-Crewe-Rugby-Willesden then it is just under 306 miles.

As the routing used is the shortest between any two points, this figure will be an approximate minimum.

It's the former - they go Willesden - Crewe - Rugby - Crewe - Willesden (based on the paths on realtime trains).

[alpinejohn]

So the above suggests 5 nights testing should deliver enough mileage (assuming it is fault free) for a train to be released for use on Goblin.

Is there a reason why these tests appear to entail only one 4 car unit? Surely they could couple together more than one 4 car unit so that one train crew can effectively deliver double or even triple the rate of mileage accumulation.

Given the crazy peak hour loadings on Goblin I hope TFL are expediting the testing and driver familiarisation process so that at least a few of the new trains will be cleared for public service before even more of the existing fleet disappear.

[norbitonflyer]

So each unit needs to do five fault-free nights. How many paths are available every night? If there is only one (even assuming seven nights a week), it will take nine months to get the entire fleet of 54 units done.

[domh245]

I was under the impression that only the first few units need to accumulate 1000s of miles of fault free running, subsequent units only need to rack up a value in the 100s (500 rings a bell)

[rincew1nd]

Oct 14, 2018 16:26:59 GMT alpinejohn said:

Is there a reason why these tests appear to entail only one 4 car unit? Surely they could couple together more than one 4 car unit so that one train crew can effectively deliver double or even triple the rate of mileage accumulation.

I would assume because this isn't testing the individual units, I would expect there to be some separate testing of the units running in multiple. However given the impending loss of the DMUs on the GOBLIN I suspect TfL just want eight functioning trains ASAP.

I assume the test runs are going to Crewe(sorry) for the same reason that the outwardly similar CrossRail trains keep appearing there.

[Chris M]

Oct 14, 2018 21:30:23 GMT rincew1nd said:

I assume the test runs are going to Crewe(sorry) for the same reason that the outwardly similar CrossRail trains keep appearing there.

I guess it's because there are paths available and Bombardier have drivers (or have contracted with a company that has drivers) who know the route.

[snoggle]

Oct 14, 2018 21:52:50 GMT Chris M said:

Oct 14, 2018 21:30:23 GMT rincew1nd said:

I assume the test runs are going to Crewe(sorry) for the same reason that the outwardly similar CrossRail trains keep appearing there.

I guess it's because there are paths available and Bombardier have drivers (or have contracted with a company that has drivers) who know the route.

Although not immediately relevant [1] to getting the GOBLIN trains into service there is also a need for the 710/2s to be tested on the third rail network too. I understand the Brighton Main Line is supposed to be used but there is a lot of engineering work happening there.

I guess Bombardier concentrated on getting 710 265 through the mileage accumulation process so it could have one set of data on how the train performed. That should give a basis for any future changes or confidence on how the next few trains should perform.

[1] I can't remember if the paths out of Willesden depot on to the NLL (and thus the GOBLIN) are fully wired or if third rail is involved. Obviously not relevant to the 172s.

[metman]

I think the line is fully wired to the Goblin but not sure how easy it is for units at Willesden Depot to get to the wires without using the juice rail?