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Post by domh245 on Sept 8, 2018 7:35:26 GMT
315s aren't being shed from TfL rail services because the 345s aren't up to scratch yet. They also can't be used on the GOBLIN because they do not have any onboard Driver Only Dispatch equipment, nor is there any Dispatch Equipment on the platforms of the GOBLIN. You'd have to install one of those (preference being for onboard) to enable them to run, or alternatively you could make them operate as guarded services, but LO haven't had guards for a while now. You would also need to train drivers and maintenance staff, get route clearance (gauging, interference, etc), which is not going to be quick or cheap. Obviously there will come a point when it is worth doing all that and installing DOO equipment*, but given what was said based on the planned timescales, the tipping point is likely going to be somewhere north of 6 months. *Alternatively the 707s are coming off lease shortly (AIUI), are DOO equipped and are designed to be easily convertible to AC operation, and may need shortening by 1-2 cards. I don't know how long this would take or how much it would cost, but if there is a very significant delay on the 710s it might be better than 315s. Still not easy though. The example now is ScotRail, which introduced some 365s to the Edinburgh - Glasgow route in a fairly short time whilst their 385s were awaiting a solution to the fishbowl window problem. It proved that where there is a will to introduce a new fleet quickly, things like driver training, maintenance training, and route clearing can be done quickly - you only need to train a small amount of drivers and fitters on it, rather than every driver who does the GOBLIN. Similarly, if you are willing to pay enough, route clearance can be hurried along. 707s could be a possibility, but aren't due to come off lease until December 2019, and are reliant on being replaced by SWR's Aventras, and if the 710s aren't in service by then, I doubt that they'd be either (although by that point something would have had to go seriously wrong!) |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 8, 2018 8:44:53 GMT
Just for clarity, no-one can speak "Pakistani" any more than they can speak Brazilian, Canadian or Swiss - it's not a language. The name of the country, which means "land of peace", is an acronym of the provinces making it up - Punjab (which is the commonest language) Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh and BaluchiSTAN. Khan is a common surname throughout the Muslim world. On the class 710 delays, had Crossrail got to the point of recruiting staff for the core section who will now have no work. Could they be redeployed as guards and/or station despatchers on the Goblin so that non-DOO units could be used in the interim? As for the 707s, I would guess that SWR may have a surplus of rolling stock at present as they are running substantially the same timetable as before their arrival. I assume there are an equivalent number (thirty) of 455s or 450s sitting idle somewhere (unless all the 450s have been used to extend 8-car trains to twelve) |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 8, 2018 9:02:34 GMT
Just for clarity I wasn't referring to the language but rather that his parents came from Pakistan.
His parents came to London from Karachi where the most commonly spoken language is Urdu although his grandparents moved there from Lucknow after Partition where they mostly speak Hindustani.
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Post by xplaistow on Sept 8, 2018 9:58:36 GMT
...unless all the 450s have been used to extend 8-car trains to twelve I believe that is exactly what they have done. I have noticed a few 12-car trains that used to be 8-car. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 8, 2018 10:58:19 GMT
On the class 710 delays, had Crossrail got to the point of recruiting staff for the core section who will now have no work. Could they be redeployed as guards and/or station despatchers on the Goblin so that non-DOO units could be used in the interim? Apart from Liverpool Street and Paddington all the stations in the core section are managed and staffed by London Underground. Crossrail/TfL is operated by Hong Kong MTR, London Overground is operated by Arriva. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 8, 2018 11:47:21 GMT
315s aren't being shed from TfL rail services because the 345s aren't up to scratch yet. They also can't be used on the GOBLIN because they do not have any onboard Driver Only Dispatch equipment, nor is there any Dispatch Equipment on the platforms of the GOBLIN. You'd have to install one of those (preference being for onboard) to enable them to run, or alternatively you could make them operate as guarded services, but LO haven't had guards for a while now. The TFL Rail 315s may not being actively scrapped, but there are a good number stored in sidings and around Ilford. If Scotrail can do it on Glasgow-Edinburgh, so can London. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 8, 2018 11:57:28 GMT
The 315s are leased from Eversholt, they'll probably lease them somewhere else after TfL are done with them.
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Post by 35b on Sept 8, 2018 12:16:05 GMT
The 315s are leased from Eversholt, they'll probably lease them somewhere else after TfL are done with them. At 40 odd years old, I’ve my doubts. All the similar units are heading for scrap except the few 313s on the coastway, and far newer and better units are lying idle. |
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Post by jukes on Sept 8, 2018 15:59:11 GMT
Unfortunately you've demonstrated that spelling his name is beyond you. Its Khan (Pakistani) not Kahn(German). Khan inherited a mess from Boris and a TfL that has been crippled by the withdrawal of Treasury funding by George Osborne making London the only capital city in Western Europe that doesn't get financial support from the national government. Instead of Sadiq we could have had Zac Goldsmith who declared that buses would be redundant by 2018 because we'd all be driving electric cars. Yeah, there's a bloke with a good grasp of transport in London... Boris gave us the Boris bus, the cable car, closed the ticket offices despite promising they'd stay open, cycle superhighways that weren't properly planned and £30m of TfL money wasted on the Garden Bridge. Ken gave us London Overground, increased bus services, expanded Oyster cards to Network Rail and would have given us the cycle hire scheme except he'd have gone with the cheaper Paris Velib rather the Montreal Bixi system. Lets get something straight. My predictive text on my Mac is set up to match my family linguistic background which (apart from English) was a German speaking area of Russia on my fathers side and French on my mothers!!!! Kahn/Khan. Now to get back to the 710s. Despite this extension to the end of December, the fact remains that unless NR Type Approval is granted by latest mid September (so that's the end of next week), then all bets are off. Even mid September is tempting fate in that nothing else goes wrong after that. It's most if not extremely unlikely that ORR would agree to the 315s on GOB for reasons already given. And don't even imagine for a second that 707s or anything else would be readily available. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 8, 2018 20:01:15 GMT
There's a load of 345's sat doing nothing now.
°ducks°
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Post by domh245 on Sept 8, 2018 20:16:03 GMT
Not sure if that post was made tongue in cheek or not, but they would still have the D.O. dispatch equipment problem, as they use a LU style platform camera with the images transmitted to the train. They would need the equipment installing, which gives them no advantage over anything else, indeed it disadvantages them as cameras and transmitters are more expensive than mirrors!
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Post by Chris M on Sept 8, 2018 20:26:26 GMT
Is there any reason a 345 couldn't be despatched using mirrors if they were provided?
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Post by snoggle on Sept 8, 2018 20:30:19 GMT
WMT have already indicated that they probably won't extend beyond 31 December and would actually like the trains a couple of weeks or so before Christmas. The Mayor was very silly to have said that and only demonstrates his naivety which is surprising considering he is supposedly not a political amateur. Unfortunately Kahn has demonstrated that this job is beyond him, whilst BoJo demonstrated that real life was totally beyond him. Livingstone just demonstrated............... The 710 programme is only critical at the moment for the GOB. All the other lines waiting for 710s (DC, West Anglia) have trains that can continue to run for some considerable time albeit with financial implications. I was not pin point accurate in my recollection of the Mayor's comment. I have gone back and checked the tweet and it says the Mayor has *been told by TfL* that the trains should be use in December 2018. Therefore the noose is really hanging TfL's neck rather than the Mayor's. To be fair the Mayor would not make an independent comment on something like this when he's responding to an Assembly Member's question - it would always come from TfL. One must in turn assume that TfL have been given an appropriate assurance by Bombardier who are the accountable party for the trains. Anyway round, every day that passes without one positive word emanating from Bombardier / Network Rail / TfL just means we get closer to a major crisis if WMT are really determined to take the 172s into their fleet. I know the 710s for the GOBLIN are the priority but Bombardier will want the TfL trains out of Derby ASAP which will create a whole pile of pressure on Arriva and TfL to take them into use very quickly. Obviously Bombardier have to resolve the problems preventing any trains going into service but that will not stop them wanting space for the pile of trains they are building for Greater Anglia and others. |
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Post by stapler on Sept 8, 2018 21:19:50 GMT
This has the making of another Daily Mail rail scandal.... mark 24?
Mr Grayling and Mr Khan (do they ever speak to each other?) need to get Eversholt, NR, LO, the ASLE&F, RMT,ORR, W mids Trains, ATOC and all other well-paid players round a table to shake them out of their silos and rule books, and work out a practical means of getting the Goblin working. If that means guards for a few months, and quick assurance that 315s (or whatever) could be used on the line safely with adequately trained crew, it simply needs to be done.... Otherwise it'll just be more proof that our railway system doesn't work.
After all, when the GEML was bombed, the Norwich expresses were worked via Loughton Branch Jc, Woodford Jc, Seven Kings curve, within two hours with pilotmen and appropriate speed limits. 70 years on, we can't even work one NE London line with stock used on another without rewriting the Treaty of Versailles.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 8, 2018 23:50:16 GMT
This has the making of another Daily Mail rail scandal.... mark 24? Mr Grayling and Mr Khan (do they ever speak to each other?) need to get Eversholt, NR, LO, the ASLE&F, RMT,ORR, W mids Trains, ATOC and all other well-paid players round a table to shake them out of their silos and rule books, and work out a practical means of getting the Goblin working. If that means guards for a few months, and quick assurance that 315s (or whatever) could be used on the line safely with adequately trained crew, it simply needs to be done.... Otherwise it'll just be more proof that our railway system doesn't work. After all, when the GEML was bombed, the Norwich expresses were worked via Loughton Branch Jc, Woodford Jc, Seven Kings curve, within two hours with pilotmen and appropriate speed limits. 70 years on, we can't even work one NE London line with stock used on another without rewriting the Treaty of Versailles. I doubt very much that a little commuter line running through London Labour constituencies would have any resonance for the national media. Yes it's a mess and thousands may end up inconvenienced but it doesn't play to the same narrative as the GTR mess where Tory MPs are both personally inconvenienced and also jumping up and down on behalf of their constituents. The Standard might try to use it as a stick to bash Khan over the head with as part of the clearly emerging Tory focused narrative against Khan that will run from now until May 2020. Even then most of London would still yawn as the line is of no consequence to them. Furthermore it is extremely easy to deflect blame on to Network Rail for infrastructure delays and cockups and then a "British in name only" train builder. Apart from the platform extensions and providing some of the cash GOBLIN electrification is not a TfL scheme anyway. It's largely DfT funded and undertaken by a company wholly controlled and funded by the DfT. I'm afraid I don't see your wartime comparision as being particularly relevant. The exigencies of war and maintaining supplies forced all sorts of rules to be broken / bent to keep things moving. There's no comparable need for such a response now. Also there's little value, IMO, of getting all those parties round a table as most of them have nothing to offer nor any great incentive to bend over backwards. The trade unions certainly don't and they're not at fault here in any way. The only likely thing that would influence things is money and TfL don't have piles of that to chuck round needlessly. If there is a genuine pressing demand for trains to move between franchise areas then DfT are the arbiter of that and who knows what goes on there? They might opt to pause a transfer to help out London or they may not. The only small breathing space is the decision to pause a large part of the December timetable change. It is clear that City Hall has regular contact with the DfT at various levels and I am sure they are all aware of the issues on the GOBLIN. It still comes back to Bombardier being able to provide a train that works - so far they have not done that. The DfT can't fix that issue. Everything flows from Bombardier providing a working train. In reality there are three options that could work - Bombardier achieve a miracle with the class 710s and they're somehow ready in time - the class 172s are allowed to stay - TfL and Arriva London Rail agree to scale back some elements of other LO services and that on the GOBLIN to allow the route to be run with class 378s. That would be unpopular, difficult and not without its own issues but if we know one thing it's that a class 378 can run satisfactorily on the GOBLIN. Just a pity all the 378s are 5 cars - Gospel Oak bay platform is probably the biggest problem. My view remains that we will end up with bus substitution over the winter. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 9, 2018 7:03:34 GMT
If that means guards for a few months, and quick assurance that 315s (or whatever) could be used on the line safely with adequately trained crew, it simply needs to be done. "Guards for a few months"? And pray tell where will these guards come from? LO hasn't had guards since July 2014, any ex-guards still working for LO as drivers or whatever would have to be retrained as their licences have expired. Except there's no one at LO to retrain them, I know of one guard/instructor who still works there but he would need to be retrained for the same reason. |
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Post by cudsn15 on Sept 9, 2018 9:26:09 GMT
Isn't the default option "Rail Replacement Buses"? They're the cheapest and easiest to sort out. True hardly anyone uses them but at least a service of sorts is being provided.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 9, 2018 10:40:35 GMT
Given that the issue is lack of working, suitable trains, buses are the only option that doesn't require extensive and expensive capital works to trains/and or stations and/or (re)training of staff that in some cases no longer exist.
There are all sorts of creative solutions that could be implemented with the will - but only if significant money can be found.
Hiring in loco and coaches from a tour operator/spot hire company might be possible - but it wound require route training drivers (and possibly guards), and off the top of my head all the coaching stock available is intercity not metro oriented, which would lead to significant dwell at every station (even the 172s which feature a commuter layout struggle in the peaks). The bay platform at Gospel Oak means you'd really need a short or passenger-carrying DVT at the west end and I don't know if there are any of them about.
Beyond that you're looking at finding whatever units are at the bottom of the reshuffle - but they are all guard-operated or require platform-mounted monitors - I.e. exactly where we started!
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Post by croxleyn on Sept 9, 2018 17:37:55 GMT
One of the reasons the NLL and GOBlin runs are popular is the significantly cheaper tickets, staying out of Zone 1. If users want the interchange stations, then some passenger load could be taken off the current overcrowded trains by reducing the price of the longer journey via Zone 1.
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 9, 2018 18:04:31 GMT
Something is not adding up here.
Harking back to the start of this thread in April - we were being told the trains were coming along nicely indeed plenty had already rolled off the production line but their delivery to TFL was apparently delayed due to problems finding time on test tracks needed to get these units signed off. Indeed there were then rumours that one 710 was heading for testing in France.
So in the ensuing 4 months surely Bombardier have managed to get those test results and know precisely what if any issues still need to be resolved to get these trains signed off for use.
So who is actually holding this up now?
It is far too easy to assert that it "must be Bombardier" - but one might assume they are not just sitting on their hands - as they surely want to get paid for these trains - sooner rather than later.
Then there were also rumours in the rail media about "software" issues affecting Aventra software used on the 710 models and also their sister 345s trains? However if software is still is the cause of these delays, surely the desire to get paid would provide ample incentive for Bombardier to recruit sufficient additional software expertise to ensure the software was quickly fixed.
Indeed it now seems the software being used on the basically similar 345s has somehow been approved for use and they are now operational.
So once again the question is who or what is really holding this up?
Is it actually Network Rail or ORR who are dragging their heels and are now the real culprits holding up these trains at least being released for gauging runs and driver training etc?
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Post by sunnyday on Sept 9, 2018 18:35:32 GMT
Is there any reason a 345 couldn't be despatched using mirrors if they were provided? No, we use mirrors on P10 at Stratford in the down direction if routed on the mainlines and there are no platform staff to dispatch. They are needed as Stratford isn't fitted with the leaky feed system. |
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Post by Tubeboy on Sept 9, 2018 20:35:35 GMT
Then there were also rumours in the rail media about "software" issues affecting Aventra software used on the 710 models and also their sister 345s trains? However if software is still is the cause of these delays, surely the desire to get paid would provide ample incentive for Bombardier to recruit sufficient additional software expertise to ensure the software was quickly fixed. Indeed it now seems the software being used on the basically similar 345s has somehow been approved for use and they are now operational The 345s and 710s have different software. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 10, 2018 8:52:30 GMT
" The 345s and 710s have different software." - I am sure your are right on this.
But the question remains - is software still an issue on the 710s? If so why - given the 345s, 700s and 710s are all members of the Aventra family.
If anything one would expect the 710s to be easier to fix than the already operational 345 Crossrail units which were designed to work with different signalling systems in place to the east and west of London as well as the core.
The 710s are perhaps closer to shorter versions of the Thameslink 700s. They too have managed to get software which works sufficiently well to get signed off for use in passenger service.
Is there something so weird about the GOBLIN signalling which prevents Bombardier simply installing 710s with software already cleared for one or other Aventra variants and then adjusting it for the shorter train lengths?
I really hope that this whole mess is not down to Bombardier trying fix something not safety critical which most passengers do not rank highly - like the wrong sort of USB or WIFI connections. I recall travelling on many trains which lacked such fripperies and not dying!
What seems most ominous is the total silence from Network Rail and ORR on what is going on.
There was a similar silence leading up to the recent admission that brand new Azuma trains cannot actually be used on OHLE and will have to run on diesel as some of the East Coast signalling system was bought on the cheap in BR days and fixing that will take years.
Yes we have seen a few freight movements on GOBLIN which prove the juice is on, but it seems strange that 710s cannot run yet 700s can.
As they say the truth will out - eventually. In the meantime GOBLIN users may need to wrap up warm this winter as they are probably going to be standing around waiting for buses.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 10, 2018 10:02:17 GMT
" The 345s and 710s have different software." - I am sure your are right on this. But the question remains - is software still an issue on the 710s? If so why - given the 345s, 700s and 710s are all members of the Aventra family. If anything one would expect the 710s to be easier to fix than the already operational 345 Crossrail units which were designed to work with different signalling systems in place to the east and west of London as well as the core. The 710s are perhaps closer to shorter versions of the Thameslink 700s. They too have managed to get software which works sufficiently well to get signed off for use in passenger service. Is there something so weird about the GOBLIN signalling which prevents Bombardier simply installing 710s with software already cleared for one or other Aventra variants and then adjusting it for the shorter train lengths? I really hope that this whole mess is not down to Bombardier trying fix something not safety critical which most passengers do not rank highly - like the wrong sort of USB or WIFI connections. I recall travelling on many trains which lacked such fripperies and not dying! What seems most ominous is the total silence from Network Rail and ORR on what is going on. There was a similar silence leading up to the recent admission that brand new Azuma trains cannot actually be used on OHLE and will have to run on diesel as some of the East Coast signalling system was bought on the cheap in BR days and fixing that will take years. Yes we have seen a few freight movements on GOBLIN which prove the juice is on, but it seems strange that 710s cannot run yet 700s can. As they say the truth will out - eventually. In the meantime GOBLIN users may need to wrap up warm this winter as they are probably going to be standing around waiting for buses. Class 700s are built by Siemens. They had huge software problems which is why they were late into service and then kept breaking down everywhere. It took Siemens months to get them working at even a low level of reliability. Things have improved since then. However Siemens is not Bombardier so what they do with their software has no relevance to the 710s. The train management system on the 710s is brand new. That on the 345s is an iteration of the Electrostar software so is older and based on something that had approval. Even then there are no 9 car class 345s in passenger service yet although they can at least run on NR metals. The 7 car 345s are not exactly reliable either but this is skewed by every train having a technician on board who investigates every tiny fault thus extending the delay duration and making them "notifiable" in terms of the stats. I have read elsewhere that the 710s also have a brand new camera system to cover the platform train interface. As this is is an area of high risk incidents - people getting stuck in doors, dragged, falling down gaps between train and platform - it is absolutely essential this works properly. There is no point whatsoever in Bombardier trying to push for approval if this system is not working perfectly. Safety regulators won't sign off on it nor would TfL nor would the trade unions. I suspect there are also lots of other things that are not right which is making the software updating job very difficult indeed. I understand the software is written in India so that's another factor to take into account. Finally it is also worth noting that it is Crossrail that has consumed vast amounts of test track capacity and, no doubt, resource inside Bombardier to try to get the 345s to work with their new signalling. Although unstated I suspect the class 710s have been in second place on the priority list for a long time in the expectation that Crossrail would have "come right" by now thus releasing capacity and capability to get the trains signed off. That, as we know, hasn't happened so now the class 710s are not ready and we're heading towards a deadline where the 172s go. |
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Post by jukes on Sept 10, 2018 10:36:18 GMT
The only reason 9-car 345s are not in public service is there that there is nowhere to reverse them at present! On the GE the platforms 16-18 at LST are not long enough for 9-car 345s. As they are currently not authorised on the Heathrow branch for signalling comparability reasons and as NR has yet to declare the bay at H&H as ready for 9-car 345 operation then 7-cars have to do! The moment the H&H bay is cleared for 9-car there is plenty in Old Oak just ready to go! 9-cars are running of course but only on test and driver familiarisation between Old Oak and Reading. Some have also run into Paddington High Level for the same purposes. With the 710s the issues are Train Control Software and the Camera system. Once these are resolved then mileage accumulation will be required plus gauging plus driver route and traction training plus hopefully no issues with signal interference................all by Christmas. This Christmas by the way....
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Post by 35b on Sept 10, 2018 11:04:17 GMT
" The 345s and 710s have different software." - I am sure your are right on this. But the question remains - is software still an issue on the 710s? If so why - given the 345s, 700s and 710s are all members of the Aventra family. If anything one would expect the 710s to be easier to fix than the already operational 345 Crossrail units which were designed to work with different signalling systems in place to the east and west of London as well as the core. The 710s are perhaps closer to shorter versions of the Thameslink 700s. They too have managed to get software which works sufficiently well to get signed off for use in passenger service. Is there something so weird about the GOBLIN signalling which prevents Bombardier simply installing 710s with software already cleared for one or other Aventra variants and then adjusting it for the shorter train lengths? I really hope that this whole mess is not down to Bombardier trying fix something not safety critical which most passengers do not rank highly - like the wrong sort of USB or WIFI connections. I recall travelling on many trains which lacked such fripperies and not dying! What seems most ominous is the total silence from Network Rail and ORR on what is going on. There was a similar silence leading up to the recent admission that brand new Azuma trains cannot actually be used on OHLE and will have to run on diesel as some of the East Coast signalling system was bought on the cheap in BR days and fixing that will take years. Yes we have seen a few freight movements on GOBLIN which prove the juice is on, but it seems strange that 710s cannot run yet 700s can. As they say the truth will out - eventually. In the meantime GOBLIN users may need to wrap up warm this winter as they are probably going to be standing around waiting for buses. Class 700s are built by Siemens. They had huge software problems which is why they were late into service and then kept breaking down everywhere. It took Siemens months to get them working at even a low level of reliability. Things have improved since then. However Siemens is not Bombardier so what they do with their software has no relevance to the 710s. The train management system on the 710s is brand new. That on the 345s is an iteration of the Electrostar software so is older and based on something that had approval. Even then there are no 9 car class 345s in passenger service yet although they can at least run on NR metals. The 7 car 345s are not exactly reliable either but this is skewed by every train having a technician on board who investigates every tiny fault thus extending the delay duration and making them "notifiable" in terms of the stats. I have read elsewhere that the 710s also have a brand new camera system to cover the platform train interface. As this is is an area of high risk incidents - people getting stuck in doors, dragged, falling down gaps between train and platform - it is absolutely essential this works properly. There is no point whatsoever in Bombardier trying to push for approval if this system is not working perfectly. Safety regulators won't sign off on it nor would TfL nor would the trade unions. I suspect there are also lots of other things that are not right which is making the software updating job very difficult indeed. I understand the software is written in India so that's another factor to take into account. Finally it is also worth noting that it is Crossrail that has consumed vast amounts of test track capacity and, no doubt, resource inside Bombardier to try to get the 345s to work with their new signalling. Although unstated I suspect the class 710s have been in second place on the priority list for a long time in the expectation that Crossrail would have "come right" by now thus releasing capacity and capability to get the trains signed off. That, as we know, hasn't happened so now the class 710s are not ready and we're heading towards a deadline where the 172s go. Just an observation on the point about where the software is written, from someone who works with Indian developers. Modern electronics mean that there need be no delay in getting software written if work is done in India; indeed, it may even shorten lead times due to the time difference. As with any other project, the quality of software will depend on the quality of the developers, that of their management, and the quality of input into what they need to do. That may be as good or bad in Derby, London or Bangalore. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 24, 2018 7:22:30 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Sept 24, 2018 13:09:35 GMT
Interesting that there is what I assume is an "official" quote from a Bombardier person in that article. They must be expecting NR sign off very soon to allow main line testing to commence. Let's see if it actually happens. You'll have to excuse my scepticism - the whole GOBLIN electrification episode has become so tiresome it's hard to believe anything. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 3, 2018 7:03:08 GMT
They can move under their own power on the network! Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 3, 2018 12:02:33 GMT
They can move under their own power on the network! THUD!   |
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