Class 710 Delivery / Entry to Service

[rincew1nd]

Jul 18, 2018 17:17:19 GMT Dom K said:

Jul 18, 2018 15:53:17 GMT jukes said:

NR has not yet granted type approval. Problem had been the TCS.

TCS?

Admin reminder: Abbreviations in posts

[Chris M]

Presumably "TCS" is the "traction control system" - anti-wheelslip and similar.

[domh245]

Could quite easily also be the train control (and management) system

[fleetline]

TCS is this case is the Train Control System. The 710 use a completely new system built just for the Aventra fleet (the 345 use the older system developed for the 387s) and it’s been remarked it’s quite buggy at present.

[rincew1nd]

I came across this tweet before, I assume this is the interior of a 710:

Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display.

[stapler]

Jul 31, 2018 9:23:25 GMT rincew1nd said:

I came across this tweet before, I assume this is the interior of a 710:

Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display.

Thought the 710s (at least on the Chingford-Enfields) we supposed to have some transverse, as well as longitudinal, seating?

[jukes]

Originally yes but TfL changed their minds and all 710s will be longitudinal.

[AndrewPSSP]

Jul 31, 2018 18:00:39 GMT jukes said:

Originally yes but TfL changed their minds and all 710s will be longitudinal.

Oh come on! The S8 have a mixture of both longitudinal and traverse seating and, in all the times I've been on the Met during the peaks, it's never posed a problem - in my eyes anyway. Maybe it's because I usually go on it during my holidays when everyone's on their day off!

[35b]

Jul 31, 2018 18:31:20 GMT AndrewPSSP said:

Jul 31, 2018 18:00:39 GMT jukes said:

Originally yes but TfL changed their minds and all 710s will be longitudinal.

Oh come on! The S8 have a mixture of both longitudinal and traverse seating and, in all the times I've been on the Met during the peaks, it's never posed a problem - in my eyes anyway. Maybe it's because I usually go on it during my holidays when everyone's on their day off!

As a commuter boarding at Kings Cross in the peak, I much prefer the S7s.

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2018 20:52:02 GMT 35b said:

Jul 31, 2018 18:31:20 GMT AndrewPSSP said:

Oh come on! The S8 have a mixture of both longitudinal and traverse seating and, in all the times I've been on the Met during the peaks, it's never posed a problem - in my eyes anyway. Maybe it's because I usually go on it during my holidays when everyone's on their day off!

As a commuter boarding at Kings Cross in the peak, I much prefer the S7s.

The s8 stock has higher capacity though. About 200 more if I remember correctly. 

I think the 710s on the lines out of Liverpool street should've got some transverse seating as planned, in my opinion, maximum journey times are long enough for it to be a sensible choice. 

[35b]

Aug 1, 2018 2:29:34 GMT @ethano92345 said:

Jul 31, 2018 20:52:02 GMT 35b said:

As a commuter boarding at Kings Cross in the peak, I much prefer the S7s.

The s8 stock has higher capacity though. About 200 more if I remember correctly. 

I think the 710s on the lines out of Liverpool street should've got some transverse seating as planned, in my opinion, maximum journey times are long enough for it to be a sensible choice. 

I agree on longer runs. But if you just want to clear the crowd at a platform, the longitudinal seats work better.

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 1, 2018 2:29:34 GMT @ethano92345 said:

The s8 stock has higher capacity though. About 200 more if I remember correctly

865 and 1003 respectively, according to Mr Wiki. Almost exactly in the ratio of 7:8, unsurprisingly.

[londoner]

In that picture above, why are all the panels and floor protected from dust/ light damage, but not the seats?

[alpinejohn]

Jul 31, 2018 18:31:20 GMT AndrewPSSP said:

Jul 31, 2018 18:00:39 GMT jukes said:

Originally yes but TfL changed their minds and all 710s will be longitudinal.

Oh come on! The S8 have a mixture of both longitudinal and traverse seating and, in all the times I've been on the Met during the peaks, it's never posed a problem - in my eyes anyway. Maybe it's because I usually go on it during my holidays when everyone's on their day off!

However when you use the Met S8s often, you will probably have spotted how that the transverse seats seem a lot grubbier than the longitudinal ones. Indeed I now avoid the transverse seats as they continue to suffer from the age old issue of feet on seats, whilst you need to be something of a giraffe to put your feet onto opposing longitudinal seats. Sadly so many people young and not so young, feel that it is their absolute right to put their mucky shoes onto seats and take great offence if you dare to express your disapproval. I am sure if you really enjoy the transverse seats in the S8s you will also find remnants of chewing gum to sit on.

[norbitonflyer]

Several of them sitting in Willesden depot when I passed it this afternoon.

[rincew1nd]

Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display.

[Deleted]

Well, at least some relief for GOBLIN punters...

[jukes]

Sept 6, 2018 13:23:40 GMT futurix said:

Well, at least some relief for GOBLIN punters...

Not really.  They had already indicated that they had extended till end of November so this just gives them 4-weeks extra.  Unless NR issues Type Approval for the 710s in the next 14-days an extra month lease time makes no difference and that assumes that fault free running then happens without incident, that there are no signal interference issues, no further software issues, no gauging issues and that there is sufficient time to route and traction train sufficient drivers whilst still running full services, so apart from that...................

[Deleted]

It means the lease can be extended.
And if it was extended once - it probably can be extended again. Which means no bustitution.

[snoggle]

Sept 6, 2018 15:19:43 GMT jukes said:

Sept 6, 2018 13:23:40 GMT futurix said:

Well, at least some relief for GOBLIN punters...

Not really.  They had already indicated that they had extended till end of November so this just gives them 4-weeks extra.  Unless NR issues Type Approval for the 710s in the next 14-days an extra month lease time makes no difference and that assumes that fault free running then happens without incident, that there are no signal interference issues, no further software issues, no gauging issues and that there is sufficient time to route and traction train sufficient drivers whilst still running full services, so apart from that...................

Well that "extension" aligns with a tweet from the user group that referenced the Mayor telling Jennette Arnold AM that the 710s would be "in service by December". Like you I am deeply deeply sceptical about all of this. Class 710s have been physically complete *for months* and one has yet to turn a wheel under its own power on normal NR metals. Unless a breakthrough in NR type approval is imminent then we're not getting electric trains on the GOBLIN this year. That will mean at least a year's delay in getting the stock working and one heck of a commercial dispute between TfL and Bombardier. At some point West Midlands Trains will put their foot down about wanting the 172s transferred which means, IMO, the risk of GOBLIN bus substitution remains a real possibility.

[jukes]

Sept 6, 2018 21:39:40 GMT snoggle said:

Sept 6, 2018 15:19:43 GMT jukes said:

Not really.  They had already indicated that they had extended till end of November so this just gives them 4-weeks extra.  Unless NR issues Type Approval for the 710s in the next 14-days an extra month lease time makes no difference and that assumes that fault free running then happens without incident, that there are no signal interference issues, no further software issues, no gauging issues and that there is sufficient time to route and traction train sufficient drivers whilst still running full services, so apart from that...................

Well that "extension" aligns with a tweet from the user group that referenced the Mayor telling Jennette Arnold AM that the 710s would be "in service by December". Like you I am deeply deeply sceptical about all of this. Class 710s have been physically complete *for months* and one has yet to turn a wheel under its own power on normal NR metals. Unless a breakthrough in NR type approval is imminent then we're not getting electric trains on the GOBLIN this year. That will mean at least a year's delay in getting the stock working and one heck of a commercial dispute between TfL and Bombardier. At some point West Midlands Trains will put their foot down about wanting the 172s transferred which means, IMO, the risk of GOBLIN bus substitution remains a real possibility.

WMT have already indicated that they probably won't extend beyond 31 December and would actually like the trains a couple of weeks or so before Christmas.  The Mayor was very silly to have said that and only demonstrates his naivety which is surprising considering he is supposedly not a political amateur.  Unfortunately Kahn has demonstrated that this job is beyond him, whilst BoJo demonstrated that real life was totally beyond him.  Livingstone just demonstrated...............  The 710 programme is only critical at the moment for the GOB.  All the other lines waiting for 710s (DC, West Anglia) have trains that can continue to run for some considerable time albeit with financial implications.

[norbitonflyer]

What are WMT planning to use the 172s for? If they will displace something else, where are the displaced units destined for? Presumably, somewhere down the line (!) there are some passengers who are going to have to put up with short formations or Pacers for longer than planned.

[jukes]

As far as I know WMT have to transfer some trains to EMT. Someone mentioned its the 8 Class 153s.

[xplaistow]

Out of interest, how long would you estimate it will take between NR giving type approval and the trains actually running in service (bearing in mind the possibility of further delay)?

[Chris M]

Well the minimum time will be the longest of the time taken to:

• Identify and resolve any gauging issues
• Identify and resolve any interference issues with signalling, etc
• Train enough drivers on the stock
• Train enough maintenance people on the stock

Given that once approval is given I expect the stock will all arrive in London pretty quickly (unless there are depot capacity issues?), I guess that the four things will be able to run largely in parallel, but I can't put a figure on any of them.

[rincew1nd]

Sept 7, 2018 12:41:39 GMT jukes said:

Unfortunately Kahn has demonstrated that this job is beyond him, whilst BoJo demonstrated that real life was totally beyond him.  Livingstone just demonstrated................

Let's keep the political opinions out of this please.

[stapler]

It is surely not beyond the wit of woman/man to arrange for some redundant 315s to do the GOBLIN, if necessary by getting some drivers trained additionally on it. The rest is just accountancy and redrawing a couple of contracts....The 315s are being shed at 2 a week, aren't they?

[domh245]

315s aren't being shed from TfL rail services because the 345s aren't up to scratch yet. They also can't be used on the GOBLIN because they do not have any onboard Driver Only Dispatch equipment, nor is there any Dispatch Equipment on the platforms of the GOBLIN. You'd have to install one of those (preference being for onboard) to enable them to run, or alternatively you could make them operate as guarded services, but LO haven't had guards for a while now.

[aslefshrugged]

Sept 7, 2018 13:41:39 GMT 1 jukes said:

Unfortunately Kahn has demonstrated that this job is beyond him, whilst BoJo demonstrated that real life was totally beyond him. Livingstone just demonstrated................

Unfortunately you've demonstrated that spelling his name is beyond you.  Its Khan (Pakistani) not Kahn(German).

Khan inherited a mess from Boris and a TfL that has been crippled by the withdrawal of Treasury funding by George Osborne making London the only capital city in Western Europe that doesn't get financial support from the national government.  Instead of Sadiq we could have had Zac Goldsmith who declared that buses would be redundant by 2018 because we'd all be driving electric cars. Yeah, there's a bloke with a good grasp of transport in London...

Boris gave us the Boris bus, the cable car, closed the ticket offices despite promising they'd stay open, cycle superhighways that weren't properly planned and £30m of TfL money wasted on the Garden Bridge.

Ken gave us London Overground, increased bus services, expanded Oyster cards to Network Rail and would have given us the cycle hire scheme except he'd have gone with the cheaper Paris Velib rather the Montreal Bixi system.

[Chris M]

Sept 7, 2018 21:34:28 GMT domh245 said:

315s aren't being shed from TfL rail services because the 345s aren't up to scratch yet. They also can't be used on the GOBLIN because they do not have any onboard Driver Only Dispatch equipment, nor is there any Dispatch Equipment on the platforms of the GOBLIN. You'd have to install one of those (preference being for onboard) to enable them to run, or alternatively you could make them operate as guarded services, but LO haven't had guards for a while now.

You would also need to train drivers and maintenance staff, get route clearance (gauging, interference, etc), which is not going to be quick or cheap. Obviously there will come a point when it is worth doing all that and installing DOO equipment*, but given what was said based on the planned timescales, the tipping point is likely going to be somewhere north of 6 months.

*Alternatively the 707s are coming off lease shortly (AIUI), are DOO equipped and are designed to be easily convertible to AC operation, and may need shortening by 1-2 cards. I don't know how long this would take or how much it would cost, but if there is a very significant delay on the 710s it might be better than 315s. Still not easy though.