ATO SPADs

[class411]

This question relates to an incident from around 42 years ago.

I was on a Victoria Line train from Victoria to Warren Street, and as it arrived at Green Park, there was a sound that I can only describes as a giant massively farting, and the train came to a very abrupt halt. Passengers were thrown forward with considerable force. Once the train stopped I got up and looked out of the doors, and most of the first carriage was in the tunnel.

Is it possible for the VL to SPAD. If not, what could have caused the above event?

[up1989]

Possibly a new driver training in protected manual, and didn't brake in time, and had a speed violation. Just a guess.

[Dstock7080]

The original Victoria Line system was notorious for overrunning in ATO, if the train went too far the Westinghouse emergency air brake would’ve applied, without intervention from the Operator.
A heavy EP Electro Pneumatic brake application in ATO would give a similar sound on the 1967 Stock.

[rincew1nd]

For example:

[Dstock7080]

Jul 6, 2018 20:10:03 GMT rincew1nd said:

For example:

That's the Operator giving a little help, using the off-side emergency handle, which exhausts train-line air.

[rincew1nd]

I mis-read your explanation! Perhaps the OP could clarify of the video I found was similar to what they experienced?

[t697]

Still quite a reasonably accurate stop in that video!

[class411]

Jul 7, 2018 0:05:28 GMT rincew1nd said:

I mis-read your explanation! Perhaps the OP could clarify of the video I found was similar to what they experienced?

That's exactly it - although the sound in the carriage was different in tone because of its different acoustics. And, of course, in this instance the train stopped roughly where it was supposed to.

Thanks a lot for the video.

[aslefshrugged]

It is possible to have SPADs in ATO on the Central Line so I guess its possible on the Victoria.

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2018 17:22:37 GMT class411 said:

This question relates to an incident from around 42 years ago.

I was on a Victoria Line train from Victoria to Warren Street, and as it arrived at Green Park, there was a sound that I can only describes as a giant massively farting, and the train came to a very abrupt halt. Passengers were thrown forward with considerable force. Once the train stopped I got up and looked out of the doors, and most of the first carriage was in the tunnel.

Is it possible for the VL to SPAD. If not, what could have caused the above event?

Was the sound continuous, or was it more like 'hist'...'hist'...'hist'...'hist'

[class411]

It was continuous. It really did sound as if it had been made by an absolutely enormous 'whoopie cushion'.

[snoggle]

Late to the party on this one but, as others have said, the old 67 stock certainly could and did overrun its stop positions. I've been on trains that did it and seen it happen while waiting on platforms. On very rare occasions it's required the train to be set back - not done v often simply because of the effort involved - or for the train to depart for the next station without opening its doors.

The opposite also happened - trains stopping short with the drivers leaping into manual mode to get the train to the stopping mark.

I have not seen an 09 stock train do any of these antics but I imagine they do have their own foibles. Having had a reasonably long cab ride in an 09 it was much more impressive than a 67 stock simply because of the faster acceleration and much better braking allow faster platform approach speeds.

[notverydeep]

Another potential are where SPADs could occur would be within the depot at Northumberland Park. There are 'Stop Boards' which require the Tower Operator (depot signaler) to authorise any movement past. Any over-run or other movement past one of these without authority would be deemed a SPAD.

[davethewomble]

If a train SPADs in ATO, does it count as a black mark against the operator in the same way as it would on a manual driven train?

[Deleted]

Wasn’t it called a code trip ?

[Tom]

Yes - usually abbreviated on failure reports as 'T243 LCNxxxx CTVd'

[class411]

Jul 9, 2018 15:07:19 GMT davethewomble said:

If a train SPADs in ATO, does it count as a black mark against the operator in the same way as it would on a manual driven train?

An interesting question.

Presumably not for incidents where the rain only moves a short distance past the signal.

But if a train is clearly not going to stop before a red, such as in the video to which rincew1nd linked, is the operator expected to prevent, or mitigate the effects of, the impending SPAD? And in the most egregious cases would they be censured for failing to do so?

Which leads to another question: Do operators on the Victoria line get any opportunity to practice manual driving, so that they can maintain a feel for the braking profile of the trains they supervise - or are they able to maintain that simply by continually experiencing braking in day to day operations?

[aslefshrugged]

SPADs in ATO are not classed as a driver error. Even if the driver doesn't activate the emergency brake ATP will do so when the train enters the section protected by the signal or block marker board.