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Post by snoggle on Apr 7, 2019 23:21:22 GMT
Eh? Excuse me being a bit thick but what precisely opens on 10/12/19 and what reopens 10 days later? It's not entirely impossible to close and reopen a line in a short space of time - the Jubilee line closed for 5 days to allow the addition of the extra car. Granted, the amount of work needed was alleviated from the fact that the extension stations had been built with 7-car in mind and the older platforms were long from the outset but my point still stands. It is possible to close and then re-open a line in 10 days. The only (theoretical) difference is that the Jubilee didn't have it's opening, closing and subsequent re-opening in such a small amount of time. I know I wasn't very precise but I'm just bemused about a 10 day shutdown over the festive period. Strikes me as peculiar because if the railway is ready for pre Christmas traffic then what can be done in 10 days that'll be different if / when it reopens for the post New Year return to work? Both of the signalling transition points - Westbourne Park and Pudding Mill Lane - will have to work from day one for empty stock workings for the core service so I can't see that would be involved. I assume the stations will be ready(ish) if the public are expected to use the line for shopping at the busiest time of year. Given people will be holiday it would make sense to have a period of operation in the holiday period so those who want to see the line / have a ride can do so in slightly more relaxed circumstances. It just all feels a bit odd to me but we're all just speculating like mad. The JL 7 car swap over is a good example of a short period line blockade. Obviously a lot of work was done before hand to prepare alternative stopping points. camera positions and the extra platform edge door activation. IIRC a couple of trains were extended to 7 car before the blockade so they had test trains immediately ready while the rest of the fleet was lengthened over the short blockade period. I know the Infracos are now universally viewed as a disaster but I think Tube Lines did a decent job with the 7 car element of the upgrade. Obviously the signalling and control upgrade was a nightmare because of the huge learning curves involved for TLL, Thales and LUL. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 7, 2019 23:22:00 GMT
oh... just when I was looking forwards to a rail replacement boat !! Off-topic for this thread but I have been on a rail replacement boat service, from North Greenwich to a pier near East India DLR, when the Jubilee line was closed between North Greenwich and at least Canning Town. I took photos of and from the service on Saturday 10 October 2009, but I presume it ran at least all weekend. The service was operated by Thames Clippers, using at the time I travelled Sun Clipper. There was also a time when the Fairbourne Railway ran a 'Rail Replacement Rail/Boat service', taking passengers from Fairbourne station to the point by train when they transferred to a ferry for Barmouth after an incident closed the Cambrian Coast line. There's also this: Anyway, we drift.... |
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Apr 8, 2019 20:45:54 GMT
London General ran a boat replacement bus service in the late 1990s or early 2000's when there was a problem with the pier on the South Bank or Westminster, I forget which one it was. Special blinds were produced for it as well.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 8, 2019 23:13:29 GMT
London had a bridge replacement boat service when Tower Bridge was being refurbished a couple of years back.
For a period during the reconstruction of the Connaught Tunnel for Crossrail, there was a bridge replacement bus service - there are two parallel bridges over the dock both of which swing, a footbridge and a road bridge. The footbridge, which is much lower, was swung open for a week or so but the other bridge was available for road traffic use so a minibus shuttled pedestrians from one side to the other.
(as there are probably other examples of unusual replacement services, a mod may wish to split them to a new thread)
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 9, 2019 7:01:18 GMT
Back to the big picture.
Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget.
Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading?
The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 9, 2019 7:22:08 GMT
Back to the big picture. Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget. Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading? The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income. Doesn’t that require 9 car trains to be able to run into Heathrow? Is any work being done at Liverpool Street to allow 9 car trains to run there? |
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Post by 35b on Apr 9, 2019 8:24:52 GMT
Back to the big picture. Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget. Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading? The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income. Doesn’t that require 9 car trains to be able to run into Heathrow? Is any work being done at Liverpool Street to allow 9 car trains to run there? Not to mention that GWR may not be that interested in paying for the 345s when they have nice new 387s to use and pay for. Or that GWR commuters may be less than impressed at the more spartan accommodation on the 345s, especially without the compensating advantages of Crossrail. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 8:26:46 GMT
Back to the big picture. Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget. Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading? The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income. Heathrow: Class 345 (Crossrail) aren't fitted with ATP (the signalling system in the Heathrow tunnels). Class 332 (Heathrow Express) is only fitted with ATP. ATP co-existing with other signalling systems such as TPWS (as is the case between Heathrow tunnels and Paddington) is fine unless you're in a tunnel, where the ATP signals bounce around like nobody's business and interfere with everything else. The plan is to install ECTS (a new signalling system) in the Heathrow tunnels alongside ATP (ATP will eventually be switched off as it's legacy), but the engineers need to stop ATP interfering with ECTS before it can be switched on. Class 332 is due to be replaced with Class 387 in the next year I think, which will also only use ECTS, but that doesn't help the current situation.
Reading: GWR have got the Reading slows until the end of the year and their business plan is based on that, so it's not in TfL's gift to simply snatch the services and start running their trains and the money that comes with them. And I don't see there being much of a benefit for the passengers in the next few months as I think those services currently enjoy Class 387 anyway, so hardly some sort of doubling of capacity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 8:43:31 GMT
Is any work being done at Liverpool Street to allow 9 car trains to run there?
There was going to be a blockade this summer to remove platform 18, I think it is, and extend 16 and 17 for 9 car trains. However, this assumed that the only thing running into those platforms would be the peak Crossrail terminators from the East, which could probably be dispensed with temporarily. Everything else would be running into the Core. Ooops.
Network Rail were probably quite cheesed off when they learnt of the Crossrail delay because of all the planning involved. Sure, some will carry over to the eventual works date, but some would've been specific to this year. I suspect the works have been postponed because it seems fanciful that you could do them without the Core - the effect on Stratford would be the stuff of nightmares. There was talk of trying to use Liverpool Street Crossrail (I'm not sure how high level) as a terminating station briefly, but getting signoff to use it was a non-starter.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 9, 2019 9:25:32 GMT
The plan is to install ECTS (a new signalling system) in the Heathrow tunnels alongside ATP (ATP will eventually be switched off as it's legacy), but the engineers need to stop ATP interfering with ECTS before it can be switched on. Class 332 is due to be replaced with Class 387 in the next year I think, which will also only use ECTS, but that doesn't help the current situation. The Heathrow tunnel is being fitted with traditional AWS/TPWS to allow the 345s to operate manually to Heathrow. |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 9, 2019 9:54:15 GMT
Back to the big picture. Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget. Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading? The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income. Some of my reply will repeat what others have said. - signalling is not compatible with the 345s in the Heathrow tunnel. Work continues to allow operation of 345s at some point. I have completely lost the plot now as to what is actually being done in the tunnels and what has to be done to rolling stock to allow their operation into H'row. I've seen so many conflicting reports I've given up. In the meantime TfL have to struggle on with class 360s and HEX use their 332s - both of which work with the legacy BR ATP fitted in the Heathrow tunnels. - TfL have no right to grab train paths or income from GWR earlier than was planned. It would be a waste of time and effort for them to try given they actually managed to get a broadly decent deal with the DfT and HEX for the future scope of Crossrail services. No point upsetting the DfT and SoS needlessly. - The latest Crossrail update for April says TfL are seeking assurance from Network Rail that they can complete platform extensions and CCTV installation before December to allow 9 car 345s to run to Reading as was always the plan. Given that is only 7-8 months away someone needs to get a move on or else we won't have 345s to Reading from the December timetable change. - Although not generating income some of the 9 car 345s are at least being used for driver training runs to Reading so that is a positive preparatory step. - I understand there will be a modest Sunday timetable uplift from May 2019 on the western TfL Rail services. The Paddington - Hayes shuttle runs from mid morning onwards thus giving Acton Main Line and West Ealing a Sunday service. It starts late because of Network Rail's rights to track possessions for maintenance and inspection purposes - not dissimilar to what happens on parts of the Overground on Sundays. |
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Post by phil on Apr 10, 2019 13:42:49 GMT
Back to the big picture. Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget. Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading? The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income.
Because the Paddington to Reading service is currently run by GWR who do not have drivers or a safety case to operate the 345s.
In any case GWR have a long lease on their 387s so why on earth would they pay someone else to store them for a few months then pay again to hire in TfL drivers and trains?
Equally why would TfL hire out trains and drivers when they get none of the fare revenue*? - and with GWR having a perfectly adequate fleet of 387s they are not in a position of 'needing' TfLs assistance so will not pay very much.
National rail services within London have NOTHING to do with TfL (other than those which the DfT have specifically given to TfL -i.e. those branded as London Overground / TfL Rail). TfL can ask all they want, it makes sod all difference unless the DfT /HM Treasury / the SoS likes what they hear.
Please remember that ALL revenue between Hayes and Reading currently goes to GWR and this cannot be taken away from them without it being provided for in the GWR franchise / management contract or without the DfT paying lots of compensation to GWR for altering the previously awarded contract.
Therefore the GWR Reading services will only transfer to TfL in accordance with the date originally written in to the GWR contract with the DfT - which is the December timetable change this year IIRC) and no earlier. It will then fall on TfL to provide the service with their drivers and 345s
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Post by phil on Apr 10, 2019 13:58:24 GMT
Back to the big picture. Crossrail is still guzzling money and the indefinite delay to the core section is presumably causing havoc to TFLs budget. Meanwhile a heap of very expensive trains are presumably somewhere quietly rusting away, still needing periodic maintenance expense, all of which is not good. Inherently if the core section is not yet complete “enough” to safely open, then why on earth have TFL not arranged to at the very least get those trains earning some income on trips into Heathrow and Reading? The current focus on the core seems to have diverted attention from a potential quick win which would give TFL some presumably very welcome extra income. Some of my reply will repeat what others have said. - signalling is not compatible with the 345s in the Heathrow tunnel. Work continues to allow operation of 345s at some point. I have completely lost the plot now as to what is actually being done in the tunnels and what has to be done to rolling stock to allow their operation into H'row. I've seen so many conflicting reports I've given up. In the meantime TfL have to struggle on with class 360s and HEX use their 332s - both of which work with the legacy BR ATP fitted in the Heathrow tunnels. Basically whats happened is that Crossrail / Network Rail have effectively given up on ever getting the BR 1990s era ATP to co-exist with the Crosrail's own safety system.
Instead the decision has been taken to dump the older trains which allows the removal of the BR ATP system in favour of a European Train Control System (ETCS) based system with which both Crossrail and modern EMUs like the 387s can be fitted with.
However this in turn means the 345s cannot run into Heathrow until the ATP system is turned off - which in turn cannot happen until enough GWR 387s have been converted to displace said older trains.
Once enough 387 trains are ready then things should start to happen fairly quickly, but till then its a waiting game.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 10, 2019 16:24:30 GMT
National rail services within London have NOTHING to do with TfL (other than those which the DfT have specifically given to TfL TfL collects revenue from Oyster on the TOCs' behalf, and show NR services on (some of) its maps, but that's about it |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 10, 2019 19:50:18 GMT
In recent weeks I've used the Great Western route several times.
Most times I would catch the first train (to or from Ealing Broadway) and frequently this meant catching a GWR 387.
The difference in internal ambience between a 387 and 345 is very considerable. The former include 2+2 seating around tables, reasonably comfortable high back seats with a visually pleasing diamond pattern fabric, folding armrests, reading lights and toilets whilst the latter have mostly longitudinal seats with fixed armrests, announcements in garbled English*, etc.
I question what passengers will say when the 387's on the all stations service to Reading are replaced by 345's. This will be seen as a downgrade! Especially by passengers who have to use the 345's because the 387 trains on the Didcot service do not call at the stations they wish to use.
*This is the train to (destination) is not proper railway English.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 10, 2019 20:10:51 GMT
We have discussed the comfort / ambience of the 345’s in previous threads. Can we stick to discussing the delay to the opening and reasons thereof.
I have also amended the thread title to remove the word “core” as discussion has been about the whole line.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 10, 2019 20:11:17 GMT
In recent weeks I've used the Great Western route several times. Most times I would catch the first train (to or from Ealing Broadway) and frequently this meant catching a GWR 387. The difference in internal ambience between a 387 and 345 is very considerable. The former include 2+2 seating around tables, reasonably comfortable high back seats with a visually pleasing diamond pattern fabric, folding armrests, reading lights and toilets whilst the latter have mostly longitudinal seats with fixed armrests, announcements in garbled English*, etc. I question what passengers will say when the 387's on the all stations service to Reading are replaced by 345's. This will be seen as a downgrade! Especially by passengers who have to use the 345's because the 387 trains on the Didcot service do not call at the stations they wish to use. *This is the train to (destination) is not proper railway English. In the end it boils down to capacity doesn't it? If there're too many people to cram into a train endowed with comfortable seating then the removal of same makes perfect sense to shift the extra masses who choose to live in an area of high population. It's a payoff.......work where the money is and endure a bit of discomfort to do so, or wait for the next train. |
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Post by phil on Apr 10, 2019 22:53:39 GMT
The plan is to install ECTS (a new signalling system) in the Heathrow tunnels alongside ATP (ATP will eventually be switched off as it's legacy), but the engineers need to stop ATP interfering with ECTS before it can be switched on. Class 332 is due to be replaced with Class 387 in the next year I think, which will also only use ECTS, but that doesn't help the current situation. The Heathrow tunnel is being fitted with traditional AWS/TPWS to allow the 345s to operate manually to Heathrow.
Please can you provide the source for you assertion as that represents a downgrade in safety compared to what is there at present.
The ORR have made it VERY clear in the past that any new system MUST provide the same or better protection than the British Rail 1990s era ATP
TPWS and (certainly AWS) don't come close to the comprehensive protection offered by ATP which is active throughout the speed range not just on the approach to red or yellow signals.
ECTS does provide the same or garter protection than ATP which is why it is being installed in the Heathrow tunnels. The 387 Electrostars were built to accommodate ECTS and the legacy ATP system - which is why they can take progressively take over from the current Heathrow trains. When sufficient 387s are in service the ATP can be turned off and the ECTS turned on.
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Post by hounddog on Apr 11, 2019 7:39:19 GMT
*This is the train to (destination) is not proper railway English. Nothing wrong with it as English though, except that "the" should be "a" as there's more than one such train a day. On-train announcements should be in English, not "Railway English" (ie jargon), since they are for the benefit of passengers, not staff. |
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Post by countryman on Apr 11, 2019 8:02:50 GMT
*This is the train to (destination) is not proper railway English. Nothing wrong with it as English though, except that "the" should be "a" as there's more than one such train a day. On-train announcements should be in English, not "Railway English" (ie jargon), since they are for the benefit of passengers, not staff. Better than 'this train is for xxxxx'. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 11, 2019 8:07:06 GMT
Again, back on topic please.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 11, 2019 9:36:43 GMT
Please can you provide the source for you assertion as that represents a downgrade in safety compared to what is there at present. Certainly, nothing on paper or linkable just verbally from an LURS visit to Romford ROC in response to several questions while standing in the Elizabeth Line control room, answered by one of the Service & Infrastructure Managers. ECTS level 2 is not working correctly, ECTS level 3 has currently no fitment anywhere else in Europe, it’s too new. CBTC to ECTS transition at the west end of the core has to be done on the move between Paddington and Westbourne Park sidings, (at the east end it’s conducted stationary in the platform at Stratford). This transition is causing a problem. Speeds below 10mph are only currently achievable. Therefore fitting AWS/TPWS to Heathrow will allow the 345s to serve the branch in the short term. Longer term it’s hoped to get ECTS2 installed and working correctly. Apologies if this sounds as hearsay. A future edition of UN will have a report of the visits undertaken. |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 11, 2019 12:15:08 GMT
Please can you provide the source for you assertion as that represents a downgrade in safety compared to what is there at present. Certainly, nothing on paper or linkable just verbally from an LURS visit to Romford ROC in response to several questions while standing in the Elizabeth Line control room, answered by one of the Service & Infrastructure Managers. ECTS level 2 is not working correctly, ECTS level 3 has currently no fitment anywhere else in Europe, it’s too new. CBTC to ECTS transition at the west end of the core has to be done on the move between Paddington and Westbourne Park sidings, (at the east end it’s conducted stationary in the platform at Stratford). This transition is causing a problem. Speeds below 10mph are only currently achievable. Therefore fitting AWS/TPWS to Heathrow will allow the 345s to serve the branch in the short term. Longer term it’s hoped to get ECTS2 installed and working correctly. Apologies if this sounds as hearsay. A future edition of UN will have a report of the visits undertaken. Err I am now more confused. I thought the Westbourne Park transition point was from CBTC to normal Network Rail signalling? ETCS is NOT yet fitted on any tracks out of Paddington. It is the longer term plan but it's not in place now. Therefore the transition should be the same as at Stratford / Pudding Mill Lane except being performed "on the move". As for Heathrow my understanding is the same as Phil's (yep, shock horror, we agree  ). I struggle to see how TPWS use by the 345s would be permitted by ORR for the reasons Phil cites. I fully accept that you were told what you were told on the Romford visit. It just doesn't quite make sense when set against other things that have been said. |
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Post by mattdickinson on Apr 11, 2019 13:38:30 GMT
I believe that Enhanced TPWS (fitting it to every signal) is regarded to be as safe as GW-ATP. Here is a report from 2015. |
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Post by phil on Apr 11, 2019 17:33:00 GMT
I believe that Enhanced TPWS (fitting it to every signal) is regarded to be as safe as GW-ATP. Here is a report from 2015. While officials may have decided to say that, it remains a fact that Enhanced TPWS it is NOT 'as safe' in the technical sense because TPWS is only active when the train is approaching a red signal where as ECTS or the BR ATP system continuously monitors the drivers speed throughout each signal section]
Yes enhanced TPWS will prevent crashes but it will NOT prevent SPADs occurring in the first place - TPWS is designed to usually stop trains within the signal overlap (usually 200yards PAST the signal). Note that word usually...
If the driver misjudges their breaking once past the initial Overspeed sensor then they can easily end up well past the signal. ECTS and BR ATP ensure this cannot happen due to the contentious speed monitoring the speed and will intervene if the speed curve does not decline as required.
The enhanced TPWS route was only permitted because there was a firm plan to fit ECTS to the GWML within a decade and enhanced TPWS can capture all non BR ATP fitted stock (like the freight locos used on the stone trains to Acton yard). It is not a long term solution and was explicitly ruled out as a solution in the Heathrow tunnels (which do not of course carry freight etc like the GWML).
It should also be noted that:-
All GWR stock (be they Hitachi 800 series units, the new 387 Electrostars, the remaining Turbo DMUs, the 319 tri mode conversions) have / will have BR ATP fitted for as long as it remains in use. - All GWR stock being retained for use of the GWML will have ECTS installed at some stage.
As ECTS is going to be the long term future for all signalling (the removal of all lineside signals on the ECML is supposed to happen within a decade) work is underway to find a way of fitting it into the likes of the 59 diesel locos.
Thus enhanced TPWS is very much a sticking plaster and its use on the GWML proper is a 'one off' job.
Therefore the intended sequence for crossrail trains going from west to east will be:-
ECTS (Heathrow), Enhanced TPWS (GWML), CBTC (Core), Regular TPWS (GEML)
Which will become:-
ECTS (Heathrow + GWML), CBTC (core), Regular TPWS (GEML)
And eventually:-
ECTS (Heathrow + GWML), CBTC (Core), ECTS (GEML)
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Post by superteacher on Apr 17, 2019 23:36:21 GMT
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 18, 2019 8:14:15 GMT
This really is getting quite embarrassing now.
And as for the waste of public money tied up in it....
On the District line we often marvel at how they’ve managed to drag out Whitechapel’s works for so many years. Everyone involved in Crossrail seems to be an expert at achieving pretty much nothing for years and get paid well for their total lack of progress.
I do appreciate big complicated projects can take years to complete and often encounter delays due to unexpected problems but Crossrail seems to be taking it to new levels of incompetence. As a railway professional I would dearly love to get behind it and beat a positive drum but how can I with this latest bit of news?!
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Post by superteacher on Apr 18, 2019 8:25:04 GMT
This really is getting quite embarrassing now. And as for the waste of public money tied up in it.... On the District line we often marvel at how they’ve managed to drag out Whitechapel’s works for so many years. Everyone involved in Crossrail seems to be an expert at achieving pretty much nothing for years and get paid well for their total lack of progress. I do appreciate big complicated projects can take years to complete and often encounter delays due to unexpected problems but Crossrail seems to be taking it to new levels of incompetence. As a railway professional I would dearly love to get behind it and beat a positive drum but how can I with this latest bit of news?! It’s almost as though they’ve slowed down since the initial delay was announced last August. Agree, it’s becoming nigh on impossible to find any positives in this shambles. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Apr 18, 2019 9:33:46 GMT
This really is getting quite embarrassing now. And as for the waste of public money tied up in it.... On the District line we often marvel at how they’ve managed to drag out Whitechapel’s works for so many years. Everyone involved in Crossrail seems to be an expert at achieving pretty much nothing for years and get paid well for their total lack of progress. I do appreciate big complicated projects can take years to complete and often encounter delays due to unexpected problems but Crossrail seems to be taking it to new levels of incompetence. As a railway professional I would dearly love to get behind it and beat a positive drum but how can I with this latest bit of news?! It’s almost as though they’ve slowed down since the initial delay was announced last August. Agree, it’s becoming nigh on impossible to find any positives in this shambles. Question-Which comes first Crossrail opening or Brexit being resolved? Before pondering answer(s) lie down in darked room,take copious amounts of paracetamol, asking your five year old grandchild to wake you with the answer on their 18th birthday.  |
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Post by silenthunter on Apr 18, 2019 9:44:57 GMT
So opening could be delayed if the testing goes badly...
What's holding up the stations though?
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). I struggle to see how TPWS use by the 345s would be permitted by ORR for the reasons Phil cites. I fully accept that you were told what you were told on the Romford visit. It just doesn't quite make sense when set against other things that have been said.
