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Post by revupminster on Aug 21, 2020 6:29:03 GMT
What your saying is you can't trust your colleagues or yourself to come to work without having been infected by the virus.
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Post by brigham on Aug 21, 2020 8:24:35 GMT
It makes no difference how long two people WITHOUT the virus are in a sterilized cab together. You are safer taking training than actually driving in service, a point which is seemingly being wilfully disregarded.
We are happy to drive, but not to take training.
Why not?
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Post by nig on Aug 21, 2020 8:54:03 GMT
It makes no difference how long two people WITHOUT the virus are in a sterilized cab together. You are safer taking training than actually driving in service, a point which is seemingly being wilfully disregarded. We are happy to drive, but not to take training. Why not? You do realise that training involves driving a train in service so how can it be safer ? They are starting a trail soon where the trainee and Io are both tested weekly and keep just those 2 training together and masks will have to be worn all the time while in the cab and maybe visors |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 21, 2020 9:47:40 GMT
What your saying is you can't trust your colleagues or yourself to come to work without having been infected by the virus. What has been made very clear over the last six months is that someone can be carrying Coronavirus and not show symptoms, you cannot trust ANYONE, including yourself, not to have been infected. I could have contracted it yesterday and not have symptoms for a week or two, so could you and anyone else on this site. That is why we are wearing face coverings in public places, to stop us giving the virus to others. I'm not sure what this has to do with the strike but don't try telling me what I'm saying. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 21, 2020 9:53:58 GMT
It makes no difference how long two people WITHOUT the virus are in a sterilized cab together. You are safer taking training than actually driving in service, a point which is seemingly being wilfully disregarded. We are happy to drive, but not to take training. Why not? You do realise that training involves driving a train in service so how can it be safer ? They are starting a trail soon where the trainee and Io are both tested weekly and keep just those 2 training together and masks will have to be worn all the time while in the cab and maybe visors As Nig said, when you're training in the cab you are in passenger service, doing exactly what you would do if you had already qualified but with an IOp in the cab instead of on your own. |
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Post by brigham on Aug 22, 2020 7:34:25 GMT
...They are starting a trail soon where the trainee and Io are both tested weekly and keep just those 2 training together and masks will have to be worn all the time while in the cab and maybe visors That's good to hear. While the naysayers and doom-mongers are busily aligning themselves WITH the problem, the people in charge, the ones who REALLY run it, are quietly working on the solution. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 22, 2020 8:55:32 GMT
...They are starting a trail soon where the trainee and Io are both tested weekly and keep just those 2 training together and masks will have to be worn all the time while in the cab and maybe visors That's good to hear. While the naysayers and doom-mongers are busily aligning themselves WITH the problem, the people in charge, the ones who REALLY run it, are quietly working on the solution. The trial is being done after negotiations with the unions through the Trains Health and Safety Council and with IOps who have volunteered. Without them "the people in charge, the ones who REALLY run it" wouldn't be able to do a thing You're welcome |
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Post by brigham on Aug 22, 2020 14:41:36 GMT
This is correct. They are working on how to get it done. The virus isn't the only problem.
I gather you are familiar with the work of Ayn Rand?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 22, 2020 18:36:48 GMT
This is correct. They are working on how to get it done. The virus isn't the only problem. I gather you are familiar with the work of Ayn Rand? I know its a load of right wing tosh written by a woman who wouldn't have received much of an education if the Russian Revolution hadn't happened. So much for gratitude... Training was suspended because of Coronavirus so in this case it is the only problem. Also training is not one of the issues that have led to the strike ballot |
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Post by Chris W on Aug 22, 2020 22:03:18 GMT
As someone who was an Admin here for many years, I feel the need to interject here...
As a writer, I carefully watch and read what is posted on the internet (not just here). It saddens me to watch politics encroach upon railways (which often becomes a political football due to financing).
The guilty even include those that seek political power/office, with one repeat offender choosing to use TfL and the government bailout package to their own ignorant ends on another platform (see fullfact.org).
Therefore, please stop and desist... I think more highly of you than to sit here, saying nothing.
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Post by brigham on Aug 24, 2020 7:39:04 GMT
Good point.
As for fullfact.org, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Post by Chris W on Aug 24, 2020 15:58:07 GMT
Good point. As for fullfact.org, quis custodiet ipsos custodes? And then... Quis custodiet ipsos custodes de custodibus de custodibus ? 
It needs to start and stop somewhere...  |
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 24, 2020 17:51:53 GMT
Perhaps it stops here and we get back on topic?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 28, 2020 12:05:14 GMT
As per usual where ASLEF leads others follow (or in this case duplicates), this has just come in from RMT.
The motion was proposed by the Engineering branch and unanimously supported.
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Post by PiccNT on Aug 28, 2020 13:49:42 GMT
Well it's obvious that those assurances won't be forthcoming within 14 days or 14 years. It's also quite obvious that things will change. Quite how hard it hits us is anyone's guess but one thing's for sure, change is coming.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 28, 2020 19:34:30 GMT
Well it's obvious that those assurances won't be forthcoming within 14 days or 14 years. It's also quite obvious that things will change. Quite how hard it hits us is anyone's guess but one thing's for sure, change is coming. Change is not a problem if its negotiated If they try to impose change without negotiation then they will have a fight on their hands |
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Post by brigham on Aug 29, 2020 7:37:30 GMT
"... the disastrous effect of the Coronavirus pandemic on the tube due in large part to the unpreparedness of the British Government, DfT, TfL and London Underground."
Looks like the only people prepared for the virus were the unions.
If only the rest had consulted them...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 29, 2020 7:50:01 GMT
Nothing of the sort, the unions' responsibility is to their members, not to make preparations for running and funding transport during a pandemic (or at any other time).
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Post by 35b on Aug 29, 2020 9:26:18 GMT
Nothing of the sort, the unions' responsibility is to their members, not to make preparations for running and funding transport during a pandemic (or at any other time). A view which, while true, misses an important dimension. With very limited union presence and without being subject to formal employee consultation process, my employer moved rapidly into a radically changed way of working back in March, while having to contend with sometimes drastically changed demand from customers for our services. That was possible because staff at all levels took the impact personally, and adjusted as individuals and teams to the changing circumstances; as we still do. The passive aggressive tone of comments like these, where staff side (how revealing that term is) are not responsible for creating, yet their advocates espouse a view that they are the true voice of how the organisation should run, makes me despair. From the outside - I’ve not been within 30 miles of the Underground since March 11th - I find the language of posts like this deeply depressing, as if denying the mutual interests of all working in and for an organisation. If I were employed in a “them and us” organisation, I can’t imagine how difficult it would have been to survive the last 6 months. From the outside, I sense no sign of engagement of a “how can we help work this through” kind, just a stout defence of previous siege lines. And we know what happened to the Maginot Line. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 29, 2020 11:22:19 GMT
My comment about union responsibility was a simple statement of fact, while my colleagues and I are employed by LU/TfL the unions are not, they are "employed" by us to represent our interests. How that could be construed as "passive aggressive" is beyond me.
The unions have made no suggestion as to how TfL or any other organisation should be run, merely that the current situation is a result of TfL's funding model not being fit for purpose and all responsible parties could have done better.
While you haven't been within 30 miles of the Underground I've been working there 5 days a week right up until a week ago. I'm currently in the middle of two weeks annual leave, I was supposed to have two weeks off at the end of May/beginning of June but deferred it until February partly because we were short of drivers, partly because nothing was open and I didn't fancy sitting around doing nothing for two weeks. I have been employed by a "them and us" organisation since 1997, the last six months haven't been any different to the preceding 23 years.
As I said before the unions are always prepared to negotiate but they sense "no sign of engagement" from management, something I've become sadly familiar with during my career. We are open to change but we aren't prepared to simply surrender our existing terms and conditions if management try to impose change as they have tried (and failed) in the past.
And while the Germans might have outflanked the Maginot Line they still didn't win the war.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 29, 2020 11:57:20 GMT
I think the Aslef and the RMT are banking on ridership returning to normal after the furlough scheme ends; but will there be jobs to go back to. Civil servants working from home are not going back. Do the unions expect the government to make them go back. Private firms are also adapting.
While ridership is low I think the government will ride out a strike and they have the majority to pass any laws they like; 2024 is a long way off. Labour governments usually keep Tory union laws. The underground will use natural wastage to reduce Sunday services; after all where is there to go?
Covid has burst the London bubble. Property prices inflated by Hong Kong money as it was thirty years ago by Russian and Hong Kong money looking for a safe haven.
Hong Kong money is also buying property in the North of England as better value.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 29, 2020 13:39:24 GMT
I think the Aslef and the RMT are banking on ridership returning to normal after the furlough scheme ends; but will there be jobs to go back to. Civil servants working from home are not going back. Do the unions expect the government to make them go back. Private firms are also adapting. While ridership is low I think the government will ride out a strike and they have the majority to pass any laws they like; 2024 is a long way off. Labour governments usually keep Tory union laws. The underground will use natural wastage to reduce Sunday services; after all where is there to go? Covid has burst the London bubble. Property prices inflated by Hong Kong money as it was thirty years ago by Russian and Hong Kong money looking for a safe haven. Hong Kong money is also buying property in the North of England as better value. ASLEF and RMT aren't "banking" on anything, passenger numbers are irrelevant. We're doing exactly the same job as we were before lockdown and see no reason why our jobs are worth less than they were 6 months ago As yet there are no plans for strikes, we're simply balloting so that we can call a strike if management try to impose changes. The only Labour government to continue Tory union laws was Blair/Brown, the Labour government of Wilson/Callaghan famously used to invite the unions to 10 Downing Street for negotiations over "beer and sandwiches". Where to go? The shops are open, the pubs are open, the restaurants are open, the the museums are open, the galleries are open, even the zoo is open. And there's very few tourists so there's never been a better time for the "natives" to visit London. House prices in London are up 4.3% since May and August has been the busiest month for ten years. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 29, 2020 13:49:52 GMT
The only Labour government to continue Tory union laws was Blair/Brown True, but that means that any labour laws enacted during the first years of Thatcher's 'reign of terror' have still not been seriously revised for ~40 years. Although governments of both flavours have made progress towards a universal living wage. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 29, 2020 14:16:53 GMT
The only Labour government to continue Tory union laws was Blair/Brown True, but that means that any labour laws enacted during the first years of Thatcher's 'reign of terror' have still not been seriously revised for ~40 years. Although governments of both flavours have made progress towards a universal living wage. Not quite. The Trade Union Act 2016 changed the criteria, instead of having to get a majority of from those who voted to support a strike unions now have to get a majority of those balloted e.g. if 1000 members are balloted but only 600 vote then instead of 301 being enough for a strike they need 501. It is harder to legally call a strike in the UK than in France, Germany or anywhere else in the developed world. |
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Post by johnlinford on Aug 29, 2020 16:04:38 GMT
I am returning from visiting my parents for a break tomorrow, and will be interested to see how it has changed. When I traveled down to the south coast last Friday the DLR and Jubilee line were a little busier than I'd see them (no standing required, maybe 30% capacity in the cars I was in, however the SW mainline train was much busier than when I last visited in July - maybe 60% capacity.
Things are definitely picking up, however I think it will be quite some time before the tourists return in droves - especially with the West End still largely boarded up! The theatre, music and events sector is facing real problems and without government support there won't be the expertise to put on the shows when they are allowed to as many fell through gaps in support schemes and have had nothing since March.
I think it would be helpful if unions were a little less bullish in their statements and reflected that the world has changed as a result of events, but then I've never worked in a large organisation where everything seems to be a battle for both sides!
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Post by superteacher on Aug 29, 2020 16:04:45 GMT
Discussion about ridership belongs in the dedicated Coronavirus thread, thanks. A couple of posts have been moved there.
Can we also confine ourselves to discussing the specific planned industrial action rather than a general discussion about unions.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 29, 2020 16:39:35 GMT
I think the Aslef and the RMT are banking on ridership returning to normal after the furlough scheme ends; but will there be jobs to go back to. Civil servants working from home are not going back. Do the unions expect the government to make them go back. Private firms are also adapting. While ridership is low I think the government will ride out a strike and they have the majority to pass any laws they like; 2024 is a long way off. Labour governments usually keep Tory union laws. The underground will use natural wastage to reduce Sunday services; after all where is there to go? Covid has burst the London bubble. Property prices inflated by Hong Kong money as it was thirty years ago by Russian and Hong Kong money looking for a safe haven. Hong Kong money is also buying property in the North of England as better value. ASLEF and RMT aren't "banking" on anything, passenger numbers are irrelevant. We're doing exactly the same job as we were before lockdown and see no reason why our jobs are worth less than they were 6 months ago As yet there are no plans for strikes, we're simply balloting so that we can call a strike if management try to impose changes. The only Labour government to continue Tory union laws was Blair/Brown, the Labour government of Wilson/Callaghan famously used to invite the unions to 10 Downing Street for negotiations over "beer and sandwiches". Where to go? The shops are open, the pubs are open, the restaurants are open, the the museums are open, the galleries are open, even the zoo is open. And there's very few tourists so there's never been a better time for the "natives" to visit London. House prices in London are up 4.3% since May and August has been the busiest month for ten years. I do think there’s some complacency there. Whilst I don’t disagree in principle, the unions will have reduced clout at the moment as the economic damage from an LU strike would be less than in normal times, simply because there are fewer people travelling and therefore quite simply fewer people to be disrupted. That’s not to say that a strike would be desirable, however there’s no doubt that at this time it would be easier to ride out. |
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Post by brigham on Aug 29, 2020 18:53:07 GMT
It would be a good time, in fact, to 'get it over with'.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 30, 2020 6:06:54 GMT
I absolutely agree, a strike would not be desirable, what we want is for management to negotiate but as with so many disputes in the past the only way to get them to the table seems to be balloting for strike action. If that's being "bullish" then so be it but if management refuse to make any commitments then what alternative do we have?
Once the ballot result is announced it will be valid for six months which should cover us through to March 2021; we can wait.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 30, 2020 13:11:26 GMT
What commitments? Harold Wilson and beer and sandwiches was mentioned above. I preferred Mike Yarwoods take on Jack Jones of the unions; "All we ask is a fair weeks wage for a fair days work"
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