More trains and a new station for the DLR

[Chris M]

ianvisits reports on a little-highlighted aspect of the recent budget announcing the DLR is to get a new station and 14 additional trains.

The additional trains are extras on top of the existing order for new trains "expected to be confirmed" later this year. The station is Thames Wharf, roughly halfway between Canning Town and Pontoon Dock.

For more details read Ian's article: www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2018/11/01/the-dlr-is-getting-a-new-station-and-more-trains/

[rincew1nd]

Hooray, a new route to that essential part of the transport network, the dangleway!

[Chris M]

Horizontally it may well be the closest station to the dangleway, but there is a significant vertical component that will need considering too!

[rincew1nd]

Parachute

[londonstuff]

Nov 1, 2018 22:54:47 GMT rincew1nd said:

Hooray, a new route to that essential part of the transport network, the dangleway!

I’m having my second go at being twenty in a couple of months and in all that time I’m proud to say I’ve never:

• eaten a kebab
• gone on the dangleway

[rincew1nd]

Well then, your birthday present is obviously a kebab buffet on the dangleway!

[MoreToJack]

Nov 1, 2018 23:07:04 GMT londonstuff said:

Nov 1, 2018 22:54:47 GMT rincew1nd said:

Hooray, a new route to that essential part of the transport network, the dangleway!

I’m having my second go at being twenty in a couple of months and in all that time I’m proud to say I’ve never:

• eaten a kebab
• gone on the dangleway

You haven't lived.

[class411]

Nov 1, 2018 23:04:31 GMT rincew1nd said:

Parachute

Rocket packs!

[aslefshrugged]

I'd give the Cable Car a miss and head for Dalston Kingsland, there are some excellent kebabs to be had around Kingsland High Road/Stoke Newington Road.

[superteacher]

Well this must be a contender for most bizarre veering off topic ever - new DLR station to kebabs!

Anyway, back on topic please.

[phil]

IIRC this 'new' station was actually planned to be built as part of the London City airport branch over a decade ago!

However due to uncertainty as to the exact path of the northern approach to long proposed Silvertown / Blackwall relief tunnel, it was felt prudent not to go ahead with it. There was also the fact that said uncertainty of the road tunnel meant that no redevelopment could occur in the immediate area depressing passenger volumes.

With the alignment of the Silvertown tunnel northern approach now fixed, the DLR station (and redevelopment of the immediate area) can now go ahead.

[Chris M]

Just because passive provision is going to be utilised doesn't mean the station will not be new. Langdon Park was passively provided for from when the DLR first opened in 1987 until construction started in 2006 - it was still a new station when opened.

[phil]

Nov 2, 2018 17:07:27 GMT Chris M said:

Just because passive provision is going to be utilised doesn't mean the station will not be new. Langdon Park was passively provided for from when the DLR first opened in 1987 until construction started in 2006 - it was still a new station when opened.

The station itself may be physically new - but the idea itself is not, which is kind of the point I was making.

On most UK rail based transport networks, a ‘new’ station is just that (I.e. it was not planned to be there from the onset of the project (though I guess a station closed in the 1960s cuts but reopened in recent times could be said to have been ‘planed in’ from the beginning so to speak).

Naturally the fact TfL / DLR are going to press forward and realise their previously made plans is to be welcomed but they are still not ‘new’ in concept.

[Deleted]

That's a bit too much of a pedantry I think - by this definition barely any station opening in Britain on existing railway would be considered new. That's not the definition of 'new' most people would think of.

[Chris M]

Certainly any station that opens where there wasn't a station recently is new from a passenger point of view. Meridian Water will be seen as a new station, even though it's effectively just Angel Road being moved a few hundred metres or so.

[theblackferret]

Nov 2, 2018 22:09:28 GMT Chris M said:

Certainly any station that opens where there wasn't a station recently is new from a passenger point of view. Meridian Water will be seen as a new station, even though it's effectively just Angel Road being moved a few hundred metres or so.

On the thread subject first, be interesting to know from those who know/use/live in Docklands how Thames Wharf's passenger hinterland/catchment area and connectivity compare now to when the station was first mooted. Has it stayed the same do you think, or improved?

The salient point re Meridian Water might be how many metres. Just thinking of JE Connor & the London Railway Record etc., I believe their criteria was that moving the platforms around +250 yards (sorry, but them was the measurements back in the 1950's/60's!) meant a re-sited station, anything less wasn't even considered re-sited.

A newly-named station? Well, the present Eltham springs to mind, deliberately pitched between the then-extant Eltham Park & Eltham Well Hall stations so they could both be closed and something of a better bus interchange etc. could be made. That's what I'd call a new station.

Meridian Water is 600m west, so would be regarded as new by most, especially if Angel Road gives up the ghost.

On the general 'when is it a new station' question, I would venture to suggest once the first sod is cut on the station site above ground, platforms take shape below decks, or passageways and lift shafts are installed in between. In other words, just as the first brush of paint to the canvas begins the creation of a new work of art, so the first concrete action to build the station infrastructure marks the creation of a new station.

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 3, 2018 16:08:22 GMT theblackferret said:

Just thinking of JE Connor & the London Railway Record etc., I believe their criteria was that moving the platforms around +250 yards meant a re-sited station, anything less wasn't even considered re-sited.

A newly-named station?
Meridian Water is 600m west, so would be regarded as new by most, especially if Angel Road gives up the ghost.

.

Meridian Water is, surely, north of Angel Road, not west.


A criterion for new vs re-sited used in some publications is that both the entrance and the platforms must be new - if any part of the platforms extends over any part of the site of the old ones it is not a new station.

[theblackferret]

Nov 3, 2018 16:24:43 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Nov 3, 2018 16:08:22 GMT theblackferret said:

Just thinking of JE Connor & the London Railway Record etc., I believe their criteria was that moving the platforms around +250 yards meant a re-sited station, anything less wasn't even considered re-sited.

A newly-named station?
Meridian Water is 600m west, so would be regarded as new by most, especially if Angel Road gives up the ghost.

.

Meridian Water is, surely, north of Angel Road, not west.


A criterion for new vs re-sited used in some publications is that both the entrance and the platforms must be new - if any part of the platforms extends over any part of the site of the old ones it is not a new station.

Yes, that's covered by the rough 250-yard rule, which also sweeps up the matter of platform extensions to service 10-coach trains etc. However, there are also anomalies where the entrance is moved to the other side of the road, and the new platforms are no more than 100 yards from the existing ones, even if there is no overlap. That criterion is still a useful basic yardstick to use as a definition of new.

[rincew1nd]

Where does Liverpool South Parkway sit in the scale of new Vs relocation then?


On the AC line Allerton closed and then a year later Parkway opened with platforms on the same site but accessed a different way from a newly built concourse. So surely this is a rebuild rather than new.

But

On the DC line Garston station closed and the following day and the next day Parkway opened with newly built platforms; there was about 200feet between the platform ramps, so is this a relocation or a new station?

So it's possibly a rebuild and a relocation; I'm happy just to call it new and now get bogged down in semantics!

[silverfoxcc]

I thought Meridian Water was being sited to the south of Angel Road ( but i havent been there for a while)

just needs someone to suggest west and we have it covered lol

[norbitonflyer]

Nov 3, 2018 17:22:35 GMT silverfoxcc said:

I thought Meridian Water was being sited to the south of Angel Road ( but i havent been there for a while)

just needs someone to suggest west and we have it covered lol

My mistake - MW is on the London side of Angel Road, so south (and a little west!)

[theblackferret]

Nov 3, 2018 18:50:18 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Nov 3, 2018 17:22:35 GMT silverfoxcc said:

I thought Meridian Water was being sited to the south of Angel Road ( but i havent been there for a while)

just needs someone to suggest west and we have it covered lol

My mistake - MW is on the London side of Angel Road, so south (and a little west!)

You won't believe this-wiki says it's 600m South West.

This station could out to be the most discussed one in London, at least if anyone can decide just where they're supposed to build it!

[Chris M]

Based on Google Maps air photo, it is approximately 580 metres from the footbridge at Angel Road to the coordinates Wikipedia gives for Meridian Water (the air photo is too old to show any construction). If you're using a four point compass then it's south, an 8-point one and it's south west, a 16-point compass would call it south south west.

[Dom K]

Back on topic please. We have a thread for the discussion of Angel Road and Merdian Water there. There is also a photo showing the view of Meridian Water station from Angel Road, so you can see how close it is.

[phil]

Nov 2, 2018 22:09:28 GMT Chris M said:

Certainly any station that opens where there wasn't a station recently is new from a passenger point of view. Meridian Water will be seen as a new station, even though it's effectively just Angel Road being moved a few hundred metres or so.

However when the Lea Valley railway was opened in 1840 there were no plans for a station at Meridian Water!

There was admittedly station called 'Edmonton' planned (and duly constructed for the opening of the railway) - now known as Angel Road.

The DLR however opened with every intention of building a station at Thames Wharf in the future - just as Landon Park was planned in from the start on the Stratford branch.

True passengers might regard the stations as 'new' (and obviously from a physical perspective they will be new), they manifestly are not from a planning perspective.

While the distinction might not master to the wider public - I would generally expect better of members of this site, who are by their nature more interested in the history, planning and operational side of the railways and not just whatever press release TfL may say.

Thames Wharf and Langdon Park are thus not 'new' stations - they are ones where construction was postponed / paused / deferred for a decade or two till certain things were settled and it became favourable to commence construction. Meridian Water is (using the 250 yards rule) not 'new' either - it is a relocated and renamed Angel Road station.

[Chris M]

I disagree that just because a station was planned to be built that it isn't new when it actually is built. By that logic no station that opened with the railway would be new, as they was always the intention of building a station at e.g. Poplar right from the start.
Also, the stations are unarguably new from an operational perspective. They are new from a historical and planning perspective too as all that was planned was "a station" at this (approximate) location - everything more detailed than that (exact location, layout, access routes, public realm, etc. originated after the railway was opened. Even if it just confirms previous ideas (although in the case of Langdon Park the provision was only for a station between All Saints and Devons Road, the exact location was determined by studies conducted years after the railway opened) then it is still new planning doing that confirming.

[silenthunter]

Nov 1, 2018 23:07:04 GMT londonstuff said:

Nov 1, 2018 22:54:47 GMT rincew1nd said:

Hooray, a new route to that essential part of the transport network, the dangleway!

I’m having my second go at being twenty in a couple of months and in all that time I’m proud to say I’ve never:

• eaten a kebab
• gone on the dangleway

I've done both on more than one occasion. The dangleway isn't that bad; although it's not exactly essential.

[whistlekiller2000]

Nov 1, 2018 23:07:04 GMT londonstuff said:

Nov 1, 2018 22:54:47 GMT rincew1nd said:

Hooray, a new route to that essential part of the transport network, the dangleway!

I’m having my second go at being twenty in a couple of months........

[flippyff]

I hope this counts as 'on-topic' for this thread...

ted.europa.eu/TED/notice/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:574563-2018:TEXT:EN:HTML

<snip>
Short description:
DLR is procuring 33 new fixed formation trains as part of its Rolling Stock Replacement Programme (RSRP) to replace the life expired B90/92 fleet and 10 new fixed formation trains. The new trains are needed to meet the service requirements for future growth and development in the Royal Docks area. In order to facilitate these new trains, the maintenance and stabling capacity of the Beckton Depot (located in London) will need to be upgraded.

<snip>

Description of the procurement:
The works are to be packaged into a number of key contracts (detailed design for some of these contracts has commenced), including:

— Substation Upgrade – Design and Build – (1 000 000 GBP – 5 000 000 GBP)

The upgrade is required before the delivery of the new fleet of rolling stock.

— Southern Sidings – Build – (4 000 000 GBP – 7 000 000 GBP)

The works include creating 3 new stabling sidings and require 7 new switches and crossings units. These are to be completed before the Northern Sidings works commence. The scope encompasses the following disciplines; civils, communications systems, signalling, permanent way / track alignment, traction services, electrical services & depot equipment and mechanical services. The contract will be let on a build only basis as detailed design will be completed separately.

— Northern Sidings – Build – (25 000 000 GBP – 40 000 000 GBP)

These works will involve building a new carriage wash, extension and modification to existing track, and the creation and modification of new stabling sidings including all ancillary infrastructure. The scope encompasses the following disciplines; civils, communications systems, signalling, permanent way / track alignment, traction services, electrical services & depot equipment and mechanical services. The contract will be let on a build only basis as detailed design will be completed separately.

— Maintenance Facility Building – Design and Build – (30 000 000 GBP – 45 000 000 GBP)

This will involve the design, construction and fit out of a new maintenance facility to service the fleet, and the provision of new track for stabling purposes and connections to the maintenance facility building. The scope includes a new facility to be designed and constructed to facilitate assembly, testing, commissioning and both light and heavy maintenance of rolling stock. The scope will also encompass mechanical, communications, signalling and electrical systems works, and to integrate these with existing systems where necessary. This is adjacent to the Northern Sidings and is one of the final packages to be delivered.

— Site Accommodation and Welfare – Design and Build – (500 000 GBP – 2 000 000 GBP)

The preparation and erection of site offices and welfare facilities for the provision of the construction works.

The estimated values, work packaging and procurement routes given here may be subject to change.

DLR will be aiming to hold supplier engagement sessions at Transport for London offices in London, UK. Transport for London will be aiming to engage the market regarding these Beckton depot works requirements, scope and programme in greater detail during 2019 when procurements begin.

The contracting entity will review the packaging strategy (and scope of each) throughout the course of the depot upgrade works and therefore the strategy may change to suit changing business and project management requirements.

<snip>
Estimated date of publication of contract notice:
18/02/2019
<snip>

I'm a bit puzzled about the statement "facilitate assembly, testing, commissioning and both light and heavy maintenance of rolling stock", is 'assembly' referring to just joining the carriages up into a unit or something else?


HTIOI

Simon

[Chris M]

Some assembly of the new trains will be required as they will be 87 metres long and arriving by road as the DLR has no rail connections. As the new trains will be single walk-through units this assembly will be more than just joining carriages up. Exactly what it will entail though will depend on the detailed design of the trains, which (if it is even complete) is not yet public.