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Post by stapler on Mar 28, 2019 22:00:24 GMT
I haven't found this subject on the Forum but apologies if I've missed or forgotten it.
With the opening of the crossrail interchange at Stratford (whenever!) there is bound to be a huge increase in cross-platform interchange with the Central, as well as extra flows to the NLL and the Jubilee. Having spent a few peaks at Stratford, I just don't see how the island platforms between the Central and Crossrail will cope, nor the staircases accommodate the masses using them; not to mention the evening peak issues on plats 6-8, where surely the problem will be at its most acute. . The island platforms were built for 1940s loadings interchanging, and were arguably designed without sufficient width of platform to accommodate severe crowding (as happens in normal peaks, let alone during service disruptions). The width of the staircases can't be increased without leaving the standing space on the platform very narrow.
IMO, Crossrail will exacerbate Central line loadings between Stratford and Leytonstone, even if it'll alleviate them towards the core. Whereas in the past, Stratford interchange was at meagre levels, after Crossrail, it'll be enormous, as the Central Line pax seek faster transit into/from the centre.
Do we have any idea how all this will be managed?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 28, 2019 22:18:23 GMT
I just don't see how the island platforms between the Central and Crossrail will cope, nor the staircases accommodate the masses using them; If it's a cross-platform interchange, the width of the staircases is irrelevant |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 28, 2019 22:28:45 GMT
In an ideal world, Stratford station needs demolishing and rebuilding from scratch to a plan designed around current loadings and desire lines. This probably means multiple levels of east-west platforms.
In the real world however, there isn't a lot you can do and even less of an opportunity to do it.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 29, 2019 6:44:37 GMT
Crossrail is meant to decrease pressure on the Central Line by eliminating much cross platform interchange because passengers will stay on the Crossrail trains. The trains using the platforms are still coming from the same starting points ie Shenfield, Southend, Gidea Park. It should also give extra capacity at Liverpool Street as the Shenfield trains go down the tunnel.
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Post by stapler on Mar 29, 2019 7:57:41 GMT
REvU, But the converse will also apply, in that pax who now stay on the Central Line for the long drag to Bond St or wherever, will want to save ?20 min on their journey by changing to Crossrail.
And pressure on the Central Line between Stratford and Leytonstone will sure increase.
NF, The width of the staircases is very relevant, in that to make them reasonably safe, they have to be wide, and that reduces the standing space on the platform to very minimal dimensions.
Another factor is the rush of people between trains at the cross-platform interchange can severely obstruct the stairheads
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 29, 2019 9:35:57 GMT
And pressure on the Central Line between Stratford and Leytonstone will sure increase. Why would it increase because of Crossrail? |
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Post by stapler on Mar 29, 2019 21:43:43 GMT
And pressure on the Central Line between Stratford and Leytonstone will sure increase. Why would it increase because of Crossrail? There speaks a man with a free pass. Because of Mayor Khan's low fares on the Central Line. People already drive to outlying stations on the Central to avoid GA fares from all over Herts, Essex, etc, and where they can, park free on street. The down side of this is journey length. Because of the Lizzie Line's fewer stops, changing at Stratford will shave that disadvantage. You can reduce a cost of £7000pa driving to Chelmsford and parking there, GA season ticket, to some £2500 with careful use of off peak Central line fares, parking for nothing within 5 minutes of Debden station... |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 29, 2019 22:47:00 GMT
In an ideal world, Stratford station needs demolishing and rebuilding from scratch to a plan designed around current loadings and desire lines. This probably means multiple levels of east-west platforms. In the real world however, there isn't a lot you can do and even less of an opportunity to do it. ah, if only... Stapler, especially at the eastern end platforms 6/8 are much wider than when built in the 1940's. The rebuilding in the 1990's saw the four fast lines (two with platforms, two without platforms) reduced to three tracks and the eastbound Electric Line was partially realigned over the trackbed of the disused fast line. This included widening the platform - especially the section labelled as platform 8. Also, to create extra space things like the pub / refreshment room which was on platforms 6 / 8 has been removed. I agree that the stairways cannot be widened, as the platforms around them are already somewhat narrow, however there are now extra flights of stairs at the eastern end of platforms 6/8 plus west-facing where the never used platform 7 is located. This new stairway only serves the portion of platform 8 that is opposite platform 7. Crossrail will never give me journey times to / from Liverpool Street (just 10 mins!) such as I enjoyed when a youngster in the 1970's / 1980's but it might yet prove to be faster for destinations Farringdon and beyond. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 30, 2019 1:21:39 GMT
Last I read was that TfL were conducting studies to try to determine what interventions could me made at Stratford to cope with peak time crowding. This is much more to do with flows to / from street and interchange flows involving longer walking distances. I don't think very much if anything can be done about the through platform widths. I believe TfL are keen to provide access to / from the street from the easternmost interchange corridor. That's fairly wide and has stairs to the main through platforms. If I was to guess TfL would want to direct people for NR / Crossrail / Central Line services to use that corridor as an exit in the AM peak and entry in the PM peak. This would relieve (to some extent) the utterly dreadful central corridor (the narrow one) and possibly the western corridor (from the JLE ticket hall to the north ticket hall). There is also the proposal to open a western entrance off the Jubilee platforms to serve the old Carpenters Rd estate area. I understand what is being suggested about possible Central line growth but I am sceptical that it will see a lot of growth from the east because of interchange to Crossrail. This is sort of stating the obvious but passengers will experiment about what route to take. What we do already know is the Shenfield line in the peaks is horrendously oversubscribed. 9 car walk through class 345s will bring a capacity boost and the planned frequencies should take some pressure off in the short term. Initially some Central Line pax may well opt to try Crossrail (once it's all joined up) but if they are relinguishing a seat or even a bit of standing space for a horrendous crush on Crossrail they won't stay with Crossrail for very long. I do expect the Central Line will be relieved *west* of Stratford because Shenfield Line pax won't be changing to it. They'll remain on Crossrail into the core tunnel. The other question is whether Eastern Crossrail pax change at Whitechapel at Canary Wharf or remain changing to the JLE and DLR at Stratford. I'd say that's a difficult one to second guess at the moment. The final big problem for TfL is how on earth they cope with contra peak flows into Stratford AM and out in the PM. This assumes that the expansion of residential / office space and other leisure / educational facilities in the Olympic Park all happen as planned. If they do then I'd argue that's a much bigger problem for TfL to handle in terms of station operation. An ever growing number of stn entrances also puts staffing costs up and makes stn operation more complex than perhaps it needs to be. The other obvious question is where does the money for all this come from? There may be the prospect of extra S106 contributions from new developments but TfL would have to demonstrate that those developments were tipping the station over the edge in terms of creating more demand for TfL to handle. That may be hard to prove given how much development is happening and the fact that transport service changes themselves will also drive demand (e.g expect a lot more people using platform 11/12 when STAR starts running). I do tend to agree that "dropping a bomb" on the place and starting again would be the best, if wholly unrealistic, option.  |
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Post by stapler on Mar 30, 2019 8:14:53 GMT
I remember the cafe well; you could sit there for hours with a 3d cup of tea and watch the Brits and B17s thundering through and the pots pottering! Sometimes in a fit of ferroequenological fantasy I think myself back there. It is true the country end of the island has been widened, but the London end hasn't, and that unwidened part's where two of the staircases are situated. Platforms 11 and 12 are already problematic when a 317 tips out and 1200 people want to get to the Jubilee quickly.
As to the Central Line issue, just stand in Station Lane in Theydon Bois, Nursery Rd or Spareleaze Hill in Loughton, or Barrington Rd in Debden in the early morning and observe the cars arrive..
The 70s-80s were quiet times at Stratford, but now 100 million a year use it, don't they?I doubt if it got that in a decade back then.
The facilities on plats 9/10 are exiguous, too, and the wet from the feet from uncovered platforms make the staircases treacherous. This isn't a question of ironing out niggles, it's much more fundamental....
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Post by Chris L on Mar 30, 2019 11:19:26 GMT
As well as the new entrance/exit by the Jubilee line platforms (intended to divert football supporters away from the Westfield Shopping Centre) it has been mentioned that the old entrance at the east end of the platforms should be re-opened.
The link to the subways is still there and is used by contractors.
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Post by stapler on Mar 30, 2019 21:29:13 GMT
Is Station St still there? Recreating the Ashbee station of c 1890?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 31, 2019 10:57:14 GMT
Why would it increase because of Crossrail? There speaks a man with a free pass. Because of Mayor Khan's low fares on the Central Line. People already drive to outlying stations on the Central to avoid GA fares from all over Herts, Essex, etc, and where they can, park free on street. The down side of this is journey length. Because of the Lizzie Line's fewer stops, changing at Stratford will shave that disadvantage. You can reduce a cost of £7000pa driving to Chelmsford and parking there, GA season ticket, to some £2500 with careful use of off peak Central line fares, parking for nothing within 5 minutes of Debden station... No, I still don't get it. Beyond the people that you mentioned who are already driving from Herts, Essex, etc. to Debden, Theydon Bois, Epping and other stations on the far east end of the Central Line in order to save money I don't see why there should be an exodus of passengers from Greater Anglia or elsewhere because Crossrail is going to make travelling from Stratford to Tottenham Court Road (currently 18 minutes, 13 minutes with Crossrail) or Bond Street (21, will be 15) marginally quicker. The only noticeable effect at Stratford will be that during the morning peak there will be fewer people getting off trains arriving on Platform 5 to change for the Central Line and more people getting off the Central Line to get on Crossrail (and reverse in the evening). Another possible outcome will be some people living in the slice of north Ilford and south Wanstead sandwiched between the GEML and the Hainault loop will switch from the Central Line (Redbridge, Gants Hill, Newbury Park) to Crossrail (Manor Park, Ilford, Seven Kings) so if anything the Central Line should be less crowded between Stratford and Leytonstone. Khan's fares aren't particular low, he's just frozen them at the level Boris left them at in January 2016 and from January 2021 I suspect fares will start going up again. I don't see why my staff pass has any relevance, before I joined LU I had quite a few years of M-F 9-5 commuting. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 31, 2019 14:30:58 GMT
I agree with aslefshrugged , Crossrail by itself will not have a huge impact on loadings through Stratford. Indeed, I seem to remember that even the projected forecasts for Stratford attributed more substantial growth to the plethora of developments around the Stratford conurbation as-well as the natural increase in London’s population as a whole. The only realistic thing that I think of as being implement in the short term would be to get creative with signage sending people the long way round during peak periods healing to thin out the crowds during the busiest periods. I fear that more radical solutions will only materialise in the current climate of fickle finances if private equity is willing to foot some of the bill. |
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Post by revupminster on Mar 31, 2019 15:43:44 GMT
As well as the new entrance/exit by the Jubilee line platforms (intended to divert football supporters away from the Westfield Shopping Centre) it has been mentioned that the old entrance at the east end of the platforms should be re-opened. The link to the subways is still there and is used by contractors. How will football supporters get back across the railway to the stadium from an entrance by the Jubilee Line. At the moment Monfitchet Road is closed to traffic and the fans are herded along splitting most up Westfield Avenue, also closed to traffic, who then turn left into Endeavour Square past the Olympic Pool. Those that arrive very early and go into the shopping centre are let out into Westfield Avenue opposite Endeavour Square but you can never get back in that way because there are huge steel gates and fences erected on match days. The football fans are treated like cattle and the huge number of stewards must cost a small fortune that West Ham even with up to 60,000 paying customer cannot be paying for (for attendance purposes they use the Arsenal system of tickets sold and not actual turnstile entries because there are always people for various reasons do not turn up). |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 31, 2019 18:18:54 GMT
As well as the new entrance/exit by the Jubilee line platforms (intended to divert football supporters away from the Westfield Shopping Centre) it has been mentioned that the old entrance at the east end of the platforms should be re-opened. The link to the subways is still there and is used by contractors. How will football supporters get back across the railway to the stadium from an entrance by the Jubilee Line. At the moment Monfitchet Road is closed to traffic and the fans are herded along splitting most up Westfield Avenue, also closed to traffic, who then turn left into Endeavour Square past the Olympic Pool. Those that arrive very early and go into the shopping centre are let out into Westfield Avenue opposite Endeavour Square but you can never get back in that way because there are huge steel gates and fences erected on match days. The football fans are treated like cattle and the huge number of stewards must cost a small fortune that West Ham even with up to 60,000 paying customer cannot be paying for (for attendance purposes they use the Arsenal system of tickets sold and not actual turnstile entries because there are always people for various reasons do not turn up). Via Gibbins Road and Carpenters Road. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 31, 2019 18:53:26 GMT
As well as the new entrance/exit by the Jubilee line platforms (intended to divert football supporters away from the Westfield Shopping Centre) it has been mentioned that the old entrance at the east end of the platforms should be re-opened. The link to the subways is still there and is used by contractors. The football fans are treated like cattle and the huge number of stewards must cost a small fortune that West Ham even with up to 60,000 paying customer cannot be paying for (for attendance purposes they use the Arsenal system of tickets sold and not actual turnstile entries because there are always people for various reasons do not turn up). West Ham aren't paying, stewarding inside and outside the stadium is paid for by the stadium owners i.e. the GLA who are funded by the taxpayers of London (myself included, a die-hard Hammer for 55 years). To be honest football fans have always been treated as cattle but its nowhere near as bad today as it was in the 70s and 80s. I once went away to Aston Villa while I was working in Birmingham, I got forced onto a train at New Street by the West Mids plod despite the fact I didn't have a ticket and was staying in the Royal Angus hotel. I managed to get off at Rugby, get a train back and then have to explain why I didn't have a ticket to the man on the ticket barrier at New Street. |
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