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Post by spsmiler on May 18, 2019 18:20:38 GMT
Somehow a North Eastern Railway 1903 Autocar has survived to the present era and has now been restored and brought back to operational status. This railcar was originally petrol electric and a contemporary of the third rail electric trains the NER introduced in the Tyneside area in 1904. In its refurbished format this autocar is diesel-electric and having been launched in April 2019 is now (May 2019) carrying fare-paying passengers on Wednesdays on the Embsay and Bolton Abbey railway, which is near to Skipton, West Yorkshire. I went to see this on Wednesday 15th May, which was a warm, sunny day. As yet I have not sorted through all my photographs or video from that trip but I made a very short 1 minute film which I placed on Twitter. Hopefully this can be seen below!
As an aside, to get to the railway first thing in the morning I went up to Yorkshire on Tuesday and stayed at the Railway Hotel in Skipton. My journey was not uneventful as a problem at Farringdon caused the Hammersmith and City Line train I was travelling on to be diverted to Edgware Road via Tower Hill (in the process becoming a Circle line train). On my way home late on Wednesday evening I experienced even more 'unusualness' as the eastbound Hammersmith and City Line train I caught at Kings Cross St Pancras station was advertised as going to Upminster on the platform displays - although it showed Barking at the front of the train. At Mile End (where I alighted) the train driver made an announcement that this train was now a District Line train to Upminster. This time I noted the train number - 267. Simon |
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Post by brigham on May 20, 2019 8:52:09 GMT
Dieselisation has reached the 'heritage' world now.
The difference between a historic artefact and an amusement park ride is narrowing.
Visitors to Beamish Museum in my native Co. Durham will already be sadly familiar with this process.
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Post by ted672 on May 20, 2019 11:45:03 GMT
Dieselisation has reached the 'heritage' world now. It's not a new phenomenon - Hastings trolleybus 28 was converted to diesel-mechanical power around 1960. |
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Post by ducatisti on May 20, 2019 15:08:14 GMT
Dieselisation has reached the 'heritage' world now. The difference between a historic artefact and an amusement park ride is narrowing. Visitors to Beamish Museum in my native Co. Durham will already be sadly familiar with this process. If a 1903-vintage vehicle isn't "heritage" I'd be quite curious to know what is... Anyway, what about vintage steam-powered amusement park rides? |
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Post by brigham on May 20, 2019 16:18:12 GMT
Does anyone doubt the historic status of the Raven Autocar?
My unease is over its conversion to 'a ride', not its historical importance.
As for amusement park rides, I have no objection to those in general, or vintage ones in particular.
In fact, I make a point of riding on historic examples. It was my childhood ambition to one day own and travel a Lang Wheels Autodrome.
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Post by ducatisti on May 20, 2019 16:31:23 GMT
in what way is it converted to a "ride"?
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Post by sem34090 on May 20, 2019 17:12:57 GMT
Now, which type of LT stock did that whistle come off of, someone...  |
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Post by brigham on May 20, 2019 17:20:02 GMT
in what way is it converted to a "ride"? It has been mounted on a Diesel-powered underframe, so that people can pretend to have experienced riding on a Raven Autocar. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 20, 2019 19:44:52 GMT
in what way is it converted to a "ride"? It has been mounted on a Diesel-powered underframe, so that people can pretend to have experienced riding on a Raven Autocar. The interior is, presumably, authentic. It is only the prime mover which has been replaced - presumably the original spark-ignition engine was no longer available, or was beyond repair, so a replacement had to be found, which happens to have compression-ignition. It's not the first "preserved" vehicle to have a new engine - see various Routemasters with their Iveco engines for example. The (hopefully) soon to be relaunched Brighton Belle has quite a lot of 4CIG under the floor. Conversely, the only part of the "Baby Deltic" currently being recreated that saw service in an original Class 23 is its engine - the rest is adapted from a class 37 bodyshell sitting on Class 20 bogies. A replica of the Ivatt LMS twins is being built from an MoD standby generator, a Class 58 frame and auxiliary components, bogies from an EM2 electric locomotive, and cabs converted from members of other classes. |
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Post by brigham on May 21, 2019 9:20:27 GMT
I'm all for re-creating things which have been lost in time, indeed, even things NOT lost.
But an entirely-different technology, which was in its infancy at the time, applied to a genuine historical artefact, is a step too far.
IF you can build an entire A1 locomotive from scratch, you can construct a Wolesley flat-four petrol engine. A suitable dynamo from the period should be easily located; they changed little over the years, and were in widespread use.
Because this project hasn't the glamour of steam, it has been under-funded and under-sold. I sincerely hope that it can be granted more respect in future years.
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Post by billbedford on May 21, 2019 9:44:20 GMT
It has been mounted on a Diesel-powered underframe, so that people can pretend to have experienced riding on a Raven Autocar.Errr Errr, no it hasn't. It has been mounted on an ex LNER 51' coach underframe that has been fitted with a diesel generator set, as the idea of a petrol driven set was deemed to be too dangerous. I'm not sure where the power bogie came from, presumably a modern electric set. There are a number of original photos on this page and you can judge for yourself how authentic it is. Oh and it's well to remember that the NER change the engines at least once to try to improve the reliability. |
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Post by littlejohn on May 21, 2019 13:26:37 GMT
It has been mounted on a Diesel-powered underframe, so that people can pretend to have experienced riding on a Raven Autocar. The interior is, presumably, authentic. It is only the prime mover which has been replaced - presumably the original spark-ignition engine was no longer available, or was beyond repair, so a replacement had to be found, which happens to have compression-ignition. It's not the first "preserved" vehicle to have a new engine - see various Routemasters with their Iveco engines for example. The (hopefully) soon to be relaunched Brighton Belle has quite a lot of 4CIG under the floor. Conversely, the only part of the "Baby Deltic" currently being recreated that saw service in an original Class 23 is its engine - the rest is adapted from a class 37 bodyshell sitting on Class 20 bogies. A replica of the Ivatt LMS twins is being built from an MoD standby generator, a Class 58 frame and auxiliary components, bogies from an EM2 electric locomotive, and cabs converted from members of other classes. Surely the RMs were re-engined still in service? I don't think it had anything to do with enabling preservation. |
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Post by brigham on May 22, 2019 8:02:57 GMT
The comments here regarding modern nth-generation buses and the like having been re-engined shows how completely the significance of this historical artefact has been missed.
This is the ONLY surviving relic of the two petrol-electric railcars introduced by Vincent Raven, which were the first of their kind.
EVER.
ANYWHERE.
The fact that the pioneering traction equipment hasn't survived, lessened the case for conservation rather than restoration. If an entire car had somehow lain dormant for a century, then 'restoration' of something so historically significant would have been out of the question.
I've followed the progress of the project since its inception, but two attempts to actually see the item have proved fruitless. Another trip is planned, and, assuming success, I shall comment further.
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Post by ducatisti on May 22, 2019 8:28:17 GMT
I don't follow your logic. there is nothing of what makes it historically-important left to restore/conserve.
Recreating it as far as possible is as good as you are going to get. You aren't going to get a petrol railcar passed for passenger service.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 22, 2019 9:12:34 GMT
Recreating it as far as possible is as good as you are going to get. You aren't going to get a petrol railcar passed for passenger service. Why not? Petrol-powered road vehicles are still quite common. But unless one of the original engines still exists (I understand the railcar had several during its working life) it was always going to be a restoration rather than conservation. Preserved steam locomotives have to have their boilers modified to meet modern safety requirements, so are no longer authentic. Where do you draw the line? Would replacing rotten woodwork be acceptable to the preservationists? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 22, 2019 9:12:57 GMT
Recreating it as far as possible is as good as you are going to get. You aren't going to get a petrol railcar passed for passenger service. Why not? Petrol-powered road vehicles are still quite common. But unless one of the original engines still exists (I understand the railcar had several during its working life) it was always going to be a restoration rather than conservation. Preserved steam locomotives have to have their boilers modified to meet modern safety requirements, so are no longer authentic. Where do you draw the line? Would replacing rotten woodwork be acceptable to the preservationists? |
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class411
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Post by class411 on May 22, 2019 9:17:31 GMT
Recreating it as far as possible is as good as you are going to get. You aren't going to get a petrol railcar passed for passenger service. Why not? Petrol-powered road vehicles are still quite common. It would probably be too difficult to armour the fuel tanks to an acceptable standard. Any accident that wasn't a derailment could lead to a derailment, and any derailment could rupture a fuel tank. A minor incident could very easily be turned into a major, fast spreading, fire. For road vehicles, a tank rupture is unlikely unless there is a very serious collision. |
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Post by billbedford on May 22, 2019 10:01:10 GMT
The comments here regarding modern nth-generation buses and the like having been re-engined shows how completely the significance of this historical artefact has been missed. This is the ONLY surviving relic of the two petrol-electric railcars introduced by Vincent Raven, which were the first of their kind. EVER. ANYWHERE. Had these two autocoaches been a success I might have agreed with you, but they were ahead of their time and it needed 30 years of development before IC/electric became common. As it is the restoration follows the usual course for pre-grouping preservation. Old bodies are found in fields somewhere, are rebuilt and married to modern steel underframes. It's all part of the nostalgia industry. |
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Post by sem34090 on May 22, 2019 10:23:11 GMT
The alternative would most likely have been to see the body rot further until eventually there was nothing left worth saving and what was left would have been only worthy of a bonfire. As it stands, a group of dedicated individuals have taken it upon themselves to ensure that hasn't happened and although the engine is different and much has had to be replaced, they've done a fantastic job on it. It may very well have been easier to build an entirely new unit, but at least a fair amount of the original survives and is now running.
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Post by ducatisti on May 22, 2019 10:46:47 GMT
Recreating it as far as possible is as good as you are going to get. You aren't going to get a petrol railcar passed for passenger service. Why not? Petrol-powered road vehicles are still quite common. But unless one of the original engines still exists (I understand the railcar had several during its working life) it was always going to be a restoration rather than conservation. Preserved steam locomotives have to have their boilers modified to meet modern safety requirements, so are no longer authentic. Where do you draw the line? Would replacing rotten woodwork be acceptable to the preservationists? Petrol vehicles are common on the road, as are barely-qualified drivers, highly-used unsignalled sections, ungated pedestrian crossings etc. Like it or loathe it road vehicles are not held to the same safety standards as railways |
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