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Post by commuter on Jan 1, 2020 10:59:33 GMT
We get PNRs not PNBs = Relief rather than Break Thought it was physical needs reliefs. P.N.B is a Main-line railway term and does not exist on the Underground, the L.U equivalent being meal relief, colloquially known as “grub.” This is halfhour unpaid, and undisturbed {so may be taken off premises} for duties over 10.5 hr {i seem to remember, someone may want to clarify; so this doesn’t apply to standard passenger operators as their duties aren’t so long} its 1 hr meal relief. A P.N.R is an unscheduled time away from normal duties for something that has arisen outside of the usual meal relief time, for train operators this is usually taken at the ends of the line or in the depot, but can be taken at an an agreed location on a running line between the T/Op and Service control. |
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Post by drainrat on Jan 2, 2020 5:47:38 GMT
Thought it was physical needs reliefs. P.N.B is a Main-line railway term and does not exist on the Underground, the L.U equivalent being meal relief, colloquially known as “grub.” This is halfhour unpaid, and undisturbed {so may be taken off premises} for duties over 10.5 hr {i seem to remember, someone may want to clarify; so this doesn’t apply to standard passenger operators as their duties aren’t so long} its 1 hr meal relief. A P.N.R is an unscheduled time away from normal duties for something that has arisen outside of the usual meal relief time, for train operators this is usually taken at the ends of the line or in the depot, but can be taken at an an agreed location on a running line between the T/Op and Service control. not necessarily an agreed location |
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Post by commuter on Jan 3, 2020 11:01:55 GMT
P.N.B is a Main-line railway term and does not exist on the Underground, the L.U equivalent being meal relief, colloquially known as “grub.” This is halfhour unpaid, and undisturbed {so may be taken off premises} for duties over 10.5 hr {i seem to remember, someone may want to clarify; so this doesn’t apply to standard passenger operators as their duties aren’t so long} its 1 hr meal relief. A P.N.R is an unscheduled time away from normal duties for something that has arisen outside of the usual meal relief time, for train operators this is usually taken at the ends of the line or in the depot, but can be taken at an an agreed location on a running line between the T/Op and Service control. not necessarily an agreed location What do you mean? Any Train operator must request a P.N.R in line with the Rule book. those who don’t may have an item booked and recorded if this causes a delay. |
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Post by drainrat on Jan 11, 2020 16:13:57 GMT
not necessarily an agreed location What do you mean? Any Train operator must request a P.N.R in line with the Rule book. those who don’t may have an item booked and recorded if this causes a delay. If you gotta go, ya gotta go. Whether you’re booked or not has no bearing on it whatsoever, so again, not necessarily an agreed location 😉 ok, say a driver requires the toilet at Holborn on central line, and cannot hold on, then they take it there, which - i’m guessing - isn’t regarded as an ‘agreed location’. So long as you let controller know (if you ain’t legging it) any location is ok. In all my time I’ve never read about agreed locations, I’ve heard of assumed agreed locations i.e. crew points, terminus stations, but again, when ya gotta go, ya gotta go, no ones gonna stop ya 😬 Also, the assumption of many that a PNR exclusive for using the toilet, it isn’t, it’s for a physical need, which includes using the toilet. |
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Post by sawb on Jan 11, 2020 18:48:05 GMT
What other physical needs might a driver need to address whilst still driving?
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 11, 2020 19:40:32 GMT
What other physical needs might a driver need to address whilst still driving? PNR is used to cover anything that means a driver cannot currently continue driving a train and needs to have, for want of a better word, a break. As already mentioned, these cannot be refused by Controllers, although there may be some discussion to coax it to be taken somewhere mutually convenient. As also noted, this isn't always possible, and if it has to be taken on a running line then Controllers will manage the service in front and behind accordingly. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jan 12, 2020 0:52:29 GMT
Usually line controllers are not involved in PNRs, ever since the introduction of Connect radio we are supposed to call the Train Manager at the next crew depot using the phone function to arrange a spare driver to relive us.
Also if we reach a terminus where we can reverse without using sidings (on the Central line that is Epping, Ealing Bwy, Hainault, W Ruislip, White City, Loughton) and we need a PNR we are supposed to inform the Line Controller although in practise this rarely happens.
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Post by commuter on Jan 12, 2020 6:42:03 GMT
What do you mean? Any Train operator must request a P.N.R in line with the Rule book. those who don’t may have an item booked and recorded if this causes a delay. If you gotta go, ya gotta go. Whether you’re booked or not has no bearing on it whatsoever, so again, not necessarily an agreed location 😉 ok, say a driver requires the toilet at Holborn on central line, and cannot hold on, then they take it there, which - i’m guessing - isn’t regarded as an ‘agreed location’. So long as you let controller know (if you ain’t legging it) any location is ok. In all my time I’ve never read about agreed locations, I’ve heard of assumed agreed locations i.e. crew points, terminus stations, but again, when ya gotta go, ya gotta go, no ones gonna stop ya 😬 Also, the assumption of many that a PNR exclusive for using the toilet, it isn’t, it’s for a physical need, which includes using the toilet. I think you have misunderstood what I have said. An agreed location means that you have requested a PNR, so this can be anywhere. I’m not referring to a list of agreed locations here because there isn’t one. If that means Holborn then so be it. The only requirement is that it must be requested; this is either via the Train Manager if it can wait until a crew relief point, or via the Service Controller if on a running line. Different lines have different practices regarding at the ends of the line and may need extra time in that some will call the Signal Operator and some the Controller. |
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Post by drainrat on Jan 13, 2020 16:09:34 GMT
there are times when a PNR isn’t requested, usually when dire needs. In 25 yrs, I’ve had just 2.
There are many occasions a driver contacts the TM to make them aware of the PNR, only to be called by the controller just as you’re approaching the crew point, that there’s no relief driver, then promptly hang up, hoping you’ll continue.
We have many female drivers who deliberately dehydrate themselves so they don’t have to go to the toilet, their answer is usually “it’s ok for you blokes, you can open the M door!”, and so they don’t drink. Occupational health won’t go anywhere near it, and so you hear and read so many staff comments from women requesting longer turn around times and less siding reversers, just so they can have some dignity at work. Progressive, my a**e!
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Jan 15, 2020 16:42:04 GMT
BR used to have 45 minutes PNB break if I remember correctly. That usually included walking time from the train to the mess room or wherever the break was to be taken. If the train was double manned (in the days of secondman and driver) a PNB was not required as the other could take over under the driver's instructions. PNB wer epaid through as part of the agreed 8 hour day. PNR on the Underground was also 45 minutes if my memory serves me, that too included time walking time from the train to the mess room/canteen. PNR time was paid under the 8 hour day agreement. An emergency PNR could be taken anywhere, but it caused a bit of delay at times. a favourite was if a PG crew had an R stock on the Circle on Sundays, oh dear, need to go to toilet at Baker Street. BS men didn't know R stock so the train had to sit there until the motorman or guard had finished.  Otherwise it meant missing a rounder if it was CO/CP. |
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Feb 8, 2020 17:26:49 GMT
Just to add to my last comment, an PNB was a rostered break, PNR was an emergency releif, the urge to pee or s**t oneself coming to mind.
In my view 30 minutes is not long enough especially if it includes walking time to and from the train. These days I have problems swallowing food, it takes me about 50% longer to eat a normal meal than it used to. Even though I'm on the rail replacement buses these days, I have difficulty using the the 40 inute statutory break insufficient to eat. It could be argued that 30 minute breaks discriminate agnst thos who may have similar medical issues.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 8, 2020 20:19:15 GMT
AIUI on the underground meal breaks exclude walking time, whether that is also true of National Rail I don't know.
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Otherwise it meant missing a rounder if it was CO/CP.
