Gospel Oak to Barking line freight derailment

[Chris M]

Unless Network Rail have plans ready and signed off that are of sufficient detail that quantities of a required materials are known, and those materials are available, and the financial and human resources are also available, and the plans don't require the closure of other bits of railway or of roads, then the emergency works will simply be like for like.

[roythebus]

With modern diesels having such high horse power available, the driver would hardly notice the difference. He probably can't look back down the train as he could with the older diesels as the modern locos don't have opening side windows or the driving position is in the middle of the loco.

What also has to be taken into consideration is the distance between crossovers, whether regular crossovers or hand worked emergency crossovers. what is the section length, how long will it take for a train to clear the section? It it takes a train 13 minutes to clear the section, the most you can run over that line is 4 trains an hour in one direction. To run train the other way, it is down to 2 trains an hour each way. If the section is over 15 minutes, then it reduces to 3 an hour and so on. Is it worth trying to run an intensive service unde those circumstances?

[35b]

Jan 28, 2020 22:17:24 GMT roythebus said:

With modern diesels having such high horse power available, the driver would hardly notice the difference. He probably can't look back down the train as he could with the older diesels as the modern locos don't have opening side windows or the driving position is in the middle of the loco.

What also has to be taken into consideration is the distance between crossovers, whether regular crossovers or hand worked emergency crossovers. what is the section length, how long will it take for a train to clear the section? It it takes a train 13 minutes to clear the section, the most you can run over that line is 4 trains an hour in one direction. To run train the other way, it is down to 2 trains an hour each way. If the section is over 15 minutes, then it reduces to 3 an hour and so on. Is it worth trying to run an intensive service unde those circumstances?

Indeed, it’s unwise to assume that the driver could or would be aware. For example, in October 2017, there was a loaded oil train that ran 25 miles with locked on brakes and very severe wheel flats in west Wales, and was only stopped by the vigilance (eventually, but that’s another story!) of signallers - www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-17-2018-extensive-track-damage-between-ferryside-and-llangennech. The driver was unaware of this, despite the train being weighed in at 3,005 tonnes and the affected wagon being at the front of the train.

[class411]

Presumably drivers develop the ability to compensate for changes in train speed caused by gradients, virtually subconsciously, so could easily be unaware of a change in drag, actually down to their expertise and experience.

[crusty54]

Jan 29, 2020 10:12:07 GMT class411 said:

Presumably drivers develop the ability to compensate for changes in train speed caused by gradients, virtually subconsciously, so could easily be unaware of a change in drag, actually down to their expertise and experience.

Given the length of some of the trains it is hardly surprising that derailments go unnoticed.

[Chris M]

I imagine that differently loaded trains will mean drag varies between trips when things are going well, so even if a driver very regularly drives over a given bit of track (and assuming route knowledge works the same for freight and passenger drivers, they only need to do it once every six months) it's going to be difficult to detect anything as unusual. Railhead condition (wet/dry/leafy/icy/etc) will also add to the natural variability I guess.

[brigham]

Jan 29, 2020 17:06:35 GMT Chris M said:

I imagine that differently loaded trains will mean drag varies between trips when things are going well, so even if a driver very regularly drives over a given bit of track (and assuming route knowledge works the same for freight and passenger drivers, they only need to do it once every six months) it's going to be difficult to detect anything as unusual. Railhead condition (wet/dry/leafy/icy/etc) will also add to the natural variability I guess.

...Which deals with any idea of 'blame' being placed upon the driver.
Now, how do we eliminate this costly (and potentially dangerous) problem?

[Chris M]

Maintain the track and trains, including freight wagons, properly. Don't overload vehicles. Employ sufficient staff to do all these things at peak times and invest enough money to give them the time and resources to do them.

[rincew1nd]

Jan 29, 2020 18:01:28 GMT brigham said:

Jan 29, 2020 17:06:35 GMT Chris M said:

I imagine that differently loaded trains will mean drag varies between trips when things are going well, so even if a driver very regularly drives over a given bit of track (and assuming route knowledge works the same for freight and passenger drivers, they only need to do it once every six months) it's going to be difficult to detect anything as unusual. Railhead condition (wet/dry/leafy/icy/etc) will also add to the natural variability I guess.

...Which deals with any idea of 'blame' being placed upon the driver.
Now, how do we eliminate this costly (and potentially dangerous) problem?

Can we stick to the GoBLin derailment please?

[goldenarrow]

Blockade between South Tottenham and Barking is now expected to be in place until at least Monday 10th February.

[roythebus]

One other thing to take into account when there's "rescue" and replacement work on the modern railway is the fact tat there's the 25kv "spaghetti" to contend with. Until that is isolated no high equirment will be able to work.

That stuff can jump considerable gaps as any professional railwayman will know. With the probability that machines such as JCBs and other lifting equipment will be used, the whole secion will have to be isolated on both roads to enable work to be carried out. there's no spare diesel stock to provide replacement rolling stock even if single line working were feasible. It's all part of the disenfranchised modern railway.

On a railway staff FB group there's a discussion about the derailment of another freight train at Eastleigh. That too has caused considerable damage even though it was a low-speed incident. It's been suggested that there's now a shortage of rail-mounted heavy lifting equipment such as the typical steam cranes that used to be dotted around the place. with everything concentrated on the GOBLIN, there's no spare breakdown cpacity to clear up at Eastleigh!

According to reports the Eastleigh derailment was caused by a set of defective points that were being video monitored by Network Rail; it happened at a speed of 12-13mph.

[bassmike]

Surprised that many more freight liner trains do not have derailment problems when you see long strings of unladen flats between loaded ones and very often flats with a container on one end only placed in the middle of unloaded units.

[Chris M]

My understanding (from reading past RAIB reports) is that correctly maintained wagons conveying correctly loaded containers running on correctly maintained track should not derail however they are loaded (with possible exceptions in exposed locations in very windy conditions). However there have been circumstances when the combination of a track fault that was within tolerance combined with a wagon fault that was also within tolerance lead to a derailment. This is not really relevant to the specific incident on the Goblin and we've already been asked to get back on topic once!

[stapler]

There was a crane with grab working on the derailed train on the Midland bridge over the Central Line today. What were they doing, trans-shipping stuff from the derailed wagons into empties on the adjacent line?

[phil]

Jan 30, 2020 21:59:27 GMT stapler said:

There was a crane with grab working on the derailed train on the Midland bridge over the Central Line today. What were they doing, trans-shipping stuff from the derailed wagons into empties on the adjacent line?

Trying to lift / re rail a wagon full of stone is considerably more difficult than an empty(ish) one. Plus as it has been suggested that a contributory cause was some of the wagons being overweight they may need emptying a bit anyway to recover them even if they are still on the rails.

[cudsn15]

The announcements on the Victoria line proclaim "no service between South Tottenham and Barking due to a faulty train". Every day so far. Those not in the know but travel on the Victoria line regularly must wonder what on earth is wrong with that train that it's holding up a line for days (and indeed weeks!) Is the freight train still in situ because of the over-loading?

[stapler]

Jan 31, 2020 20:18:08 GMT phil said:

Jan 30, 2020 21:59:27 GMT stapler said:

There was a crane with grab working on the derailed train on the Midland bridge over the Central Line today. What were they doing, trans-shipping stuff from the derailed wagons into empties on the adjacent line?

Trying to lift / re rail a wagon full of stone is considerably more difficult than an empty(ish) one. Plus as it has been suggested that a contributory cause was some of the wagons being overweight they may need emptying a bit anyway to recover them even if they are still on the rails.

Yes,quite.

That line is all bridges, not all of which look very robust. Overloaded wagons definitely not a good idea. A weighbridge somewhere might be  a good idea...

[stapler]

The T&FG was built as a line on quite delicate-looking bridges- even with rebuildings they are still a feature, as is the view over the rooftops. The Midland was after access to the Thames, but the line wasn't engineered for massively heavy trains, just 40 or 50 wagons of coal or light freight...Presumably.hoppers have a load line.Perhaps a visual, computer controlled indicator would be more affordable? The skip industry has the same issues, and the highways authorities have to pay the cost of overloaded skip lorries...

[rincew1nd]

There is a thread here dedicated to derailment discussion, please can we stick to the specifics of the GOBLin derailment on this thread.

[class411]

Feb 2, 2020 10:32:33 GMT rincew1nd said:

There is a thread here dedicated to derailment discussion, please can we stick to the specifics of the GOBLin derailment on this thread.

I made a thread for general derailment issues (Here), but must have created it with the 'SHOW_INVISIBLE' flag set.

[Chris M]

Perhaps some posts here could be moved to that thread.

[blackhorsesteve]

Is there a temporary bus timetable in place as I can't find one? Or would going from Barking to Walthamstow be quicker via Zone 1 for the meantime?

[Chris M]

Citymapper suggests that a journey from Barking to Walthamstow Queens Road departing now will take:
88 minutes by direct bus
62 minutes H&C to King's Cross then Victoria to Walthamstow Central
58 minutes District/H&C to Mile End, Central to Liverpool Street then Overground to Walthamstow Central
50 minutes District/H&C/c2c to West Ham, Jubilee to Stratford, Greater Anglia to Toteteham Hale and Victoria to Walthamstow Central.

[rincew1nd]

Feb 2, 2020 12:22:54 GMT Chris M said:

Perhaps some posts here could be moved to that thread.

I've moved what I think are the relevant posts.

[Deleted]

Feb 2, 2020 13:30:26 GMT Chris M said:

Citymapper suggests that a journey from Barking to Walthamstow Queens Road departing now will take:
88 minutes by direct bus
62 minutes H&C to King's Cross then Victoria to Walthamstow Central
58 minutes District/H&C to Mile End, Central to Liverpool Street then Overground to Walthamstow Central
50 minutes District/H&C/c2c to West Ham, Jubilee to Stratford, Greater Anglia to Toteteham Hale and Victoria to Walthamstow Central.

123 bus from Ilford? Short bus ride from Barking to Ilford??

[rincew1nd]

The RAIB have launched an investigation, details here:

www.gov.uk/government/news/freight-train-derailment-near-wanstead-park

[aslefshrugged]

Yesterday Network Rail Liverpool Street tweeted "Sleepers are being replaced today" and around 4pm you could see wagons piled with concrete sleepers at Leyton Midland Road.

[bassmike]

Don't look like concrete to me? May be plastic.

[Chris M]

I think the ones in the picture are timber bearers for the bridge section - they look too long to be sleepers, with what aslefshrugged saw being something other than what was photographed.

[aslefshrugged]

No, those weren't the concrete sleepers I saw at Midland Road

But here's something else..