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Post by jimbo on Feb 15, 2020 0:31:05 GMT
Can anyone explain how two trains once fitted into Kennington siding? I think the siding from the southbound line has to climb to the northbound line level to provide the connection to that line, and then continues at that level for a train length to enable a reversing train to stand before returning north. Did a second train stand in the climb to the northbound level, or behind the train stabling at northbound train level? How did the second train's driver know that a train was already in the siding? Could trains once work from the siding back to the southbound platforms?
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Feb 15, 2020 1:29:14 GMT
Can anyone explain how two trains once fitted into Kennington siding? I think the siding from the southbound line has to climb to the northbound line level to provide the connection to that line, and then continues at that level for a train length to enable a reversing train to stand before returning north. Did a second train stand in the climb to the northbound level, or behind the train stabling at northbound train level? How did the second train's driver know that a train was already in the siding? Could trains once work from the siding back to the southbound platforms? The actual siding was and is long enough to hold two trains. In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half. At some point this changed to a fixed red lamp and trainstop. The signalman would authorise the train to trip past the FRL. I can’t recall if it was then possible to signal a train from Kennington with a train already in the back half. In reality by this time the extra length was more about accommodating a double-length train or long engineers train rather than accommodating two separate normal-length trains. This basic setup continues to this day, with the tripping past the FRL arrangement being replaced by an RM move under TBTC. Engineers trains occasionally go beyond the normal 95 stock stopping position, however it is pretty much unheard of for a 95 stock to go right to the end. It was done a few years ago when there was a report of burning in the area and the LFB wished to be taken all the way to the end. As an aside when in there on foot the siding appears deceptively short to the eye, however the plans clearly show enough length for two 95 stocks. And a second thought, it was very fortuitous the original C&SLR allowed the siding to be fitted in. As it is the steep gradient entering the siding isn’t ideally desirable. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 15, 2020 10:38:17 GMT
Can anyone explain how two trains once fitted into Kennington siding? I think the siding from the southbound line has to climb to the northbound line level to provide the connection to that line, and then continues at that level for a train length to enable a reversing train to stand before returning north. Did a second train stand in the climb to the northbound level, or behind the train stabling at northbound train level? How did the second train's driver know that a train was already in the siding? Could trains once work from the siding back to the southbound platforms? A train came from either southbound platform and if the train was going all the way shunt signal B24 would clear. When a train was coming from the far end of the siding shunt signal B25 would clear and a train could move up to shunt signal B23.I think it was reduced to one train siding in the early 1970s and it was a climb up into the siding. The route from the siding into the southbound city platform (only) was removed when it became a programme machine site controlled by Leicester Square. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 15, 2020 10:48:36 GMT
Can anyone explain how two trains once fitted into Kennington siding? I think the siding from the southbound line has to climb to the northbound line level to provide the connection to that line, and then continues at that level for a train length to enable a reversing train to stand before returning north. Did a second train stand in the climb to the northbound level, or behind the train stabling at northbound train level? How did the second train's driver know that a train was already in the siding? Could trains once work from the siding back to the southbound platforms? As an aside when in there on foot the siding appears deceptively short to the eye, however the plans clearly show enough length for two 95 stocks. And a second thought, it was very fortuitous the original C&SLR allowed the siding to be fitted in. As it is the steep gradient entering the siding isn’t ideally desirable. I did not think the C&SLR had anything to do with the siding perhaps the LER? I did hear a rumour that the stairs at the end of the siding went up to Kennington Park but this is not true as they go down not to the bits left of Oval deep shelter but the southbound running tunning. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Feb 15, 2020 12:29:19 GMT
As an aside when in there on foot the siding appears deceptively short to the eye, however the plans clearly show enough length for two 95 stocks. And a second thought, it was very fortuitous the original C&SLR allowed the siding to be fitted in. As it is the steep gradient entering the siding isn’t ideally desirable. I did not think the C&SLR had anything to do with the siding perhaps the LER? I did hear a rumour that the stairs at the end of the siding went up to Kennington Park but this is not true as they go down not to the bits left of Oval deep shelter but the southbound running tunnel. Apologies this was bad wording on my part. You’re quite right that the siding only materialised in the 1920s. What I meant was that the layout of the original CSLR running tunnels by luck had space to find a way of installing the siding between the tunnels. It’s a tight fit by all account. Quite right about the stairs. Both the Kennington Park and Oval vent shafts are completely separate features, which in both cases came later. ISTR that this part of the Northern at one point had a severe problem with heat hence the various extra shafts installed - 1940s I think? |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 16, 2020 4:40:30 GMT
Many thanks for valuable insights. What was the original intention of such a long siding? The similarly dated Tooting siding was only a single train length unfortunately, in view of tunnel-end collisions. To reverse two following trains from Kennington, the first in must be last to leave, doubling its stand time! These sidings were planned long before the 9-car train experiments were dreamt of.
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 16, 2020 9:01:59 GMT
I did not think the C&SLR had anything to do with the siding perhaps the LER? I did hear a rumour that the stairs at the end of the siding went up to Kennington Park but this is not true as they go down not to the bits left of Oval deep shelter but the southbound running tunnel. Apologies this was bad wording on my part. You’re quite right that the siding only materialised in the 1920s. What I meant was that the layout of the original CSLR running tunnels by luck had space to find a way of installing the siding between the tunnels. It’s a tight fit by all account. Quite right about the stairs. Both the Kennington Park and Oval vent shafts are completely separate features, which in both cases came later. ISTR that this part of the Northern at one point had a severe problem with heat hence the various extra shafts installed - 1940s I think? I read about it while doing some research at the museum. What you say is correct around the 1940s will have to dig out my notes. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 16, 2020 9:08:42 GMT
Many thanks for valuable insights. What was the original intention of such a long siding? The similarly dated Tooting siding was only a single train length unfortunately, in view of tunnel-end collisions. To reverse two following trains from Kennington, the first in must be last to leave, doubling its stand time! These sidings were planned long before the 9-car train experiments were dreamt of. Can't why the siding was double length possibly to put a defective train as you say first train in would have longer time to reverse. Was it Kennington siding where they put a train overnight in winter time or was that Tooting Bdy? The only other siding that was also signalled for double length was Down Street. I know that other sidings were longer than what we have now but different stocks were used. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 16, 2020 23:14:11 GMT
A.... Quite right about the stairs. Both the Kennington Park and Oval vent shafts are completely separate features, which in both cases came later. ISTR that this part of the Northern at one point had a severe problem with heat hence the various extra shafts installed - 1940s I think? I read about it while doing some research at the museum. What you say is correct around the 1940s will have to dig out my notes. Perhaps why Northern line running tunnel is connected to foot of disused lift shaft at Lambeth North by small opening? |
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Post by philthetube on Feb 17, 2020 6:27:42 GMT
I was down there years ago, after the Moorgate Kennington Closure in around 2000 when the track reopened there was an issue with the pozzi rail which caused many trains to be left without shoes, the trains were dumped in various sidings until they could be collected this included 2 in Kennington, I was involved in retrieving the more southerly one, this was a very involved procedure as the train was totally dead, with nothing left in the batteries by the time we got round to it.
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 17, 2020 7:21:02 GMT
I read about it while doing some research at the museum. What you say is correct around the 1940s will have to dig out my notes. Perhaps why Northern line running tunnel is connected to foot of disused lift shaft at Lambeth North by small opening? There is a Northern line substation at Lambeth North next to the station can't miss it but it could also serve for ventilation purposes as well. |
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Post by commuter on Feb 17, 2020 18:58:28 GMT
The only other siding that was also signalled for double length was Down Street. I know that other sidings were longer than what we have now but different stocks were used. Which is of course in a similar position to Kennington, in that you can physically fit two trains but there is a fixed trainstop under half way down. Down St. siding only has one track circuit, meaning that even if you already have one train in there at the far end you can’t get in a second train {unless you get a Technical Officer to blow the points over and then secure the points and authorise the train to proceed. Was Kennington like this when they had signals there? |
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 17, 2020 21:47:56 GMT
Many thanks for valuable insights. What was the original intention of such a long siding? The similarly dated Tooting siding was only a single train length unfortunately, in view of tunnel-end collisions. To reverse two following trains from Kennington, the first in must be last to leave, doubling its stand time! These sidings were planned long before the 9-car train experiments were dreamt of. Can't why the siding was double length possibly to put a defective train as you say first train in would have longer time to reverse. Was it Kennington siding where they put a train overnight in winter time or was that Tooting Bdy? The only other siding that was also signalled for double length was Down Street. I know that other sidings were longer than what we have now but different stocks were used. At the material time, were there timetabled Kennington (City) terminating services? If so, a double length siding would permit the stabling of a train (which had become defective, or which they needed to 'get out of the way') without affecting the scheduled reversers. |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 17, 2020 22:12:14 GMT
It would also allow an inter-peak stabler or peak extra (e.g. for west end theatre traffic) to wait closer to town than any of the depots.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 18, 2020 2:45:25 GMT
The only other siding that was also signalled for double length was Down Street. I know that other sidings were longer than what we have now but different stocks were used. Which is of course in a similar position to Kennington, in that you can physically fit two trains but there is a fixed trainstop under half way down. Down St. siding only has one track circuit, meaning that even if you already have one train in there at the far end you can’t get in a second train {unless you get a Technical Officer to blow the points over and then secure the points and authorise the train to proceed. Was Kennington like this when they had signals there? As North End posted above re Kennington, "In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half." I don't think this ever applied to Down Street, as I recall the guard on the first train stabled had to walk back to unfold a sign by a bare light bulb to the effect "First Train Stabled". Track circuit must have been different in those days. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 18, 2020 23:54:30 GMT
Perhaps why Northern line running tunnel is connected to foot of disused lift shaft at Lambeth North by small opening? There is a Northern line substation at Lambeth North next to the station can't miss it but it could also serve for ventilation purposes as well. So probably Northern line running tunnel is connected to foot of disused lift shaft at Lambeth North by small opening for traction cable access from the substation above via the disused lift shaft. |
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Post by philthetube on Feb 19, 2020 8:14:45 GMT
Which is of course in a similar position to Kennington, in that you can physically fit two trains but there is a fixed trainstop under half way down. Down St. siding only has one track circuit, meaning that even if you already have one train in there at the far end you can’t get in a second train {unless you get a Technical Officer to blow the points over and then secure the points and authorise the train to proceed. Was Kennington like this when they had signals there? As North End posted above re Kennington, "In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half." I don't think this ever applied to Down Street, as I recall the guard on the first train stabled had to walk back to unfold a sign by a bare light bulb to the effect "First Train Stabled". Track circuit must have been different in those days. Interesting, presumably there must have been some protection arrangements in place for the crew to walk out safely, certainly wouldn't be allowed now. |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 19, 2020 10:38:35 GMT
As North End posted above re Kennington, "In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half." I don't think this ever applied to Down Street, as I recall the guard on the first train stabled had to walk back to unfold a sign by a bare light bulb to the effect "First Train Stabled". Track circuit must have been different in those days. Interesting, presumably there must have been some protection arrangements in place for the crew to walk out safely, certainly wouldn't be allowed now. There was a walking route out to Hyde Park Corner station. The siding tunnel was large enough diameter to permit train maintenance. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 19, 2020 18:56:20 GMT
The only other siding that was also signalled for double length was Down Street. I know that other sidings were longer than what we have now but different stocks were used. Which is of course in a similar position to Kennington, in that you can physically fit two trains but there is a fixed trainstop under half way down. Down St. siding only has one track circuit, meaning that even if you already have one train in there at the far end you can’t get in a second train {unless you get a Technical Officer to blow the points over and then secure the points and authorise the train to proceed. Was Kennington like this when they had signals there? Down Street did have two track circuits in the siding before the alteration. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 19, 2020 18:59:00 GMT
Can't why the siding was double length possibly to put a defective train as you say first train in would have longer time to reverse. Was it Kennington siding where they put a train overnight in winter time or was that Tooting Bdy? The only other siding that was also signalled for double length was Down Street. I know that other sidings were longer than what we have now but different stocks were used. At the material time, were there timetabled Kennington (City) terminating services? If so, a double length siding would permit the stabling of a train (which had become defective, or which they needed to 'get out of the way') without affecting the scheduled reversers. I can't say if there were times when two trains would be in the siding perhaps if there was a service issue but if there were timetabled, perhaps one of those who are timetable experts may know the answer. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 19, 2020 19:00:50 GMT
Which is of course in a similar position to Kennington, in that you can physically fit two trains but there is a fixed trainstop under half way down. Down St. siding only has one track circuit, meaning that even if you already have one train in there at the far end you can’t get in a second train {unless you get a Technical Officer to blow the points over and then secure the points and authorise the train to proceed. Was Kennington like this when they had signals there? As North End posted above re Kennington, "In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half." I don't think this ever applied to Down Street, as I recall the guard on the first train stabled had to walk back to unfold a sign by a bare light bulb to the effect "First Train Stabled". Track circuit must have been different in those days. Down Street was the same as Kennington with a pair of shunt signals. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 19, 2020 19:02:06 GMT
There is a Northern line substation at Lambeth North next to the station can't miss it but it could also serve for ventilation purposes as well. So probably Northern line running tunnel is connected to foot of disused lift shaft at Lambeth North by small opening for traction cable access from the substation above via the disused lift shaft. Two separate tunnels, you can see one of them by the lifts. |
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Post by programmes1 on Feb 19, 2020 19:03:35 GMT
As North End posted above re Kennington, "In the old days there was a pair of shunt signals at the mid-point, which admitted and released trains in and out of the second half." I don't think this ever applied to Down Street, as I recall the guard on the first train stabled had to walk back to unfold a sign by a bare light bulb to the effect "First Train Stabled". Track circuit must have been different in those days. Interesting, presumably there must have been some protection arrangements in place for the crew to walk out safely, certainly wouldn't be allowed now. I have seen mention of a train stopping and picking up staff but can't rememeber where. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Feb 19, 2020 19:33:40 GMT
There is a Northern line substation at Lambeth North next to the station can't miss it but it could also serve for ventilation purposes as well. So probably Northern line running tunnel is connected to foot of disused lift shaft at Lambeth North by small opening for traction cable access from the substation above via the disused lift shaft. Basically, yes. There’s actually two connections, the one off the southbound takes the form of a ladder and short tunnel which ends on to one of the lower lift landings at Lambeth North. It’s just about possible to get from Lambeth North lift landing to the southbound tunnel on foot, albeit a bit tight and dusty, definitely not suitable for everyday man access and even less so for passenger evacuation. The northbound tunnel has a shaft which leads up to the bottom of the disused Lambeth North lift shaft, and ultimately to a ventilation opening through the roof of the surface building. I forget which route the traction current feeder cables take, think it’s the former but I could be misremembering. Nearby the Northern Line tunnels also have four shield chambers which mark the site of the main construction site for this section, in the grounds of what was then Bethlem Hospital, now of course the Imperial War Museum. There’s no trace on the surface today of this site, the shafts being backfilled at the time. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Feb 19, 2020 19:38:12 GMT
Interesting, presumably there must have been some protection arrangements in place for the crew to walk out safely, certainly wouldn't be allowed now. I have seen mention of a train stopping and picking up staff but can't rememeber where. It still happens at Kennington if a defective train is left in the siding. Normally a northbound train will simply stop at the points allowing staff to jump down and walk over, which if done skilfully should result in the two cabs being only a few feet apart. Nowadays because there’s no officially authorised walking route as such it’s generally required to have the traction current off which makes a one minute job take potentially five to ten minutes. Those fully familiar with the area might deem it unnecessary, but the moment a train operator, car examiner or station staff are involved then juice will be taken off. After the unions kicked off the controllers will generally have it taken off as a precaution unless they know the person involved. |
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Post by davidb on Feb 20, 2020 11:41:57 GMT
My first post here (other than in the New Members board), indeed I've made an account here in order to be able to contribute to this thread. The mention of the siding at Tooting prompted me to look at the report into the tunnel-end collision there on 04/05/1971 which is available in PDF form on the Railways Archive site: www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Tooting1971.pdfThe inquest into the event could find no certain reason for the collision but there was a theory that the driver might have become disoriented and thought that he was driving into the longer siding at Kennington. Consequently the report has on its penultimate page comparative diagrams of the sidngs at Tooting and Kennington which both show signalling and distances. The one for Kennington is shown as having 'inner and 'outer' berths being 395 feet and 381 feet respectively in length. Other information shows a length of 1031 feet from the southbound entrance points to the signal protecting the inner berth and that the tunnel from the southbound line rises at 1 in 791. Hope that's useful! |
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