Bi directional working

[towerman]

With the ATO system now operating on the Jubilee Line,ia there still bi directional working between Stratford & the West Ham end of SMD?Under conventional signalling after the last WB had left Stratford it wasn't unusual to see EB trains travelling towards Stratford on the WB line.

[goldenarrow]

My knowledge of moves on the Jubilee line is very vague. However, I do recall seeing two wrong road Secure Route Indicators north West Ham and one just south of the Stratford point work which is where you would expect them for bi directional running.

[punkman]

The move is still available, but seemingly rarely done although by chance I happened to be on a train that did so the other night! If you look at the Carto map there is a crossover just after the Stratford staff halt where ATO trains can cross over from the east to the westbound and "bang road" into any Stratford platform. More usually the crossover just before the road bridge (shown on the Carto map as just south of Stratford High Street DLR station) is used. In both cases the moves are confined to late at night; as you say after the last westbound, the idea being to facilitate trains using the eastbound road going into the depot from Stratford.

[towerman]

Thanks for that Punkman.

[zbang]

Still in keeping with the topic line-

How common is wrong-road working at all on revenue track*? Obviously it can be quite confusing at some stations (but not others... for instance Edgware Rd #2 & 3) and terminal stations will always have !road moves in/out of dead-end platforms.

*taking the tube lines, SSR, and the other systems separately.

[philthetube]

There are bits around, for example there is the odd Northbound train runs into the Southbound train to reverse or stable at Rickmansworth'

Not in passenger service, but on the Northern trains can do quite a distance wrong road if reversing South to North at East Finchley, this feels weird to drive as it is a rare move, assuming it is still available since ATO

[Chris M]

On the DLR it can happen almost anywhere in times of disruption - those on Facebook can see a video of a northbound trip from South Quay to Canary Wharf on the usually southbound track in September 2019 here. I've also experienced it between All Saints and Bow Church to work around a train on the northbound track (awaiting BTP attention iirc). There were also extended periods of single line working in 2008 during various upgrade works - contemporary London Connections article.

In the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire, the H&C south of Latimer Road was operated as two parallel single lines, so each trip was alternately on the wrong road. MoreToJack was involved in operating (and setting up?) that IIRC.

[goldenarrow]

zbang , There are plenty of wrong road moves around sidings, depots and reversing points around the network however full bi-directional working on LU is much rarer confined mostly to the single lines and exceptional circumstances such as what Chris M mentioned which was a 15 min shuttle service between Hammersmith and Wood Lane with a train locked in each line.

[philthetube]

I think it has been done Wembley to Stanmore as well, though I suspect that was pre ATO, I recall it being mintioned on one of the TV progs about the Underground.

[superteacher]

Feb 29, 2020 12:56:14 GMT philthetube said:

I think it has been done Wembley to Stanmore as well, though I suspect that was pre ATO, I recall it being mintioned on one of the TV progs about the Underground.

Was between Stanmore and Kingsbury.

Many years ago, there was also a one train shuttle on the Central line running from Woodford bay platform to Snaresbrook using the westbound road only.

[jimbo]

Also 3-car shuttles both lines Cockfosters to Southgate at weekend.

[MoreToJack]

Feb 28, 2020 22:25:02 GMT Chris M said:

In the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire, the H&C south of Latimer Road was operated as two parallel single lines, so each trip was alternately on the wrong road. MoreToJack was involved in operating (and setting up?) that IIRC.

Indeed I was! I was involved in the initial discussions of getting 'Single Line Working (Train Locked In)' set up at Hammersmith cabin, and part of operating it too.

As mentioned, this involved two trains, one on each line, running up and down between Hammersmith and Wood Lane. In the 'normal' direction of travel full signalling was used (with the exception of OZ4b signal, permitting entry into platform 1 and a particular irritant for me personally!), with trains running double-staffed and with trip-docks cut out in the opposite direction.

At the start and end of each traffic day, points were unsecured to allow movements in and out of the depot for stock changeover and train prep purposes.

Prior to this, the previous use of 'Single Line Working (Train Locked In)' was indeed on the Jubilee line, between Stanmore and Kingsbury, as part of planned engineering work. It was indeed featured on the original 'The Tube' programme, notably the failure of one train and involving a bit of faff to get it changed over.

As mentioned, there's plenty of places where small amounts of bi-directional working can take place, but very little of significance. Perhaps one pertinent and relevant example is the 'new' CBTC reversing move from Finchley Road back to Baker Street, utilising the pre-existing cross-over at Swiss Cottage. I'm not sure if it's been used in anger yet, but this introduces a significant stretch of theoretical bi-di running for emergency purposes. The new crossover at Paddington isn't dissimilar, being able to be used from Royal Oak westbound back to the eastbound also. This sort of thing is much easier with digital signalling, and is a fairly standard part of Seltrac, although LU have gone to great lengths to 'design it out' of most areas.

The only 'true', significant bi-di stretches in regular use would be the Chesham single and Mill Hill East branch.

[jimbo]

Is TBTC Kennington loop anti-clockwise commissioned now?

[jimbo]

I recall 1979 Leyton collision with no service Bethnal Green to Leytonstone. Someone had the idea of a shuttle on westbound between Mile End and Stratford. The collision was all over the evening papers of the day, so everyone knew what had happened. Travellers were arriving at Mile End knowing all about it, and asking how they got to Stratford. We told them to go to the westbound Central line platform and catch the train going the wrong direction to normal! They all asked could they get a bus! I don't know why they wouldn't trust us!

[Dstock7080]

Mar 1, 2020 6:37:30 GMT jimbo said:

Is TBTC Kennington loop anti-clockwise commissioned now?

No temporary timetable TTN132 is still in operation

[superteacher]

Mar 1, 2020 6:49:16 GMT jimbo said:

I recall 1979 Leyton collision with no service Bethnal Green to Leytonstone. Someone had the idea of a shuttle on westbound between Mile End and Stratford. The collision was all over the evening papers of the day, so everyone knew what had happened. Travellers were arriving at Mile End knowing all about it, and asking how they got to Stratford. We told them to go to the westbound Central line platform and catch the train going the wrong direction to normal! They all asked could they get a bus! I don't know why they wouldn't trust us!

It’s not called “bang road” for nothing! 😂😂

[croxleyn]

Are all points/switches designed to be used bi-directional, or would those normally only used one-way need to be fixed for reverse running?

[goldenarrow]

Mar 1, 2020 12:04:46 GMT croxleyn said:

Are all points/switches designed to be used bi-directional, or would those normally only used one-way need to be fixed for reverse running?

Motorised points are bi-directional by design regardless of signalling permitting such use. Spring/Toggle points would need to be secured if moving in the anomalous direction but these are now almost exclusively found in depots and sidings.

A memorable caveat to this was the former 33 points off 24 road (now abolished) at Uxbridge sidings which was spring operated in the trailing direction coming from the platforms at Uxbridge but motorised for the return to let trains get into the station.

[revupminster]

In my day we were not taught single line working as it involved so many staff but instead wrong direction movement. The station supervisor at the end of the movement where there would be a working crossover walked the track after arranging his own protection with hand signalmen at the previous station, seeing the signalman put the points to normal locking the lever and taking the key. (the joke was at push button cabins the signalman put a cup over the push buttons) The points and any catchpoints would be scotched and clipped (not the other way round for points). After walking track the supervisor would issue a form personally to the driver and ride back in train. Crew would change ends cut out the rear trip, display a white and red light on front, red train rear lights. Move forward speed reduced to 10mph for any points and use a series of pop whistles until arriving back at the station where the train can be set right road.

[jimbo]

During asbestos removal from Bull & Bush station site in 1978, Northern line worked single line Golders Green to Hampstead on the northbound for about a month. No problems except first Sunday one of the first southbound trains hit a misaligned negative current rail which came up through the car floor!

When Totteridge southbound platform road slipped on the bank, the service worked to and from Barnet single line on the Northbound.

[davidb]

I remember that for a week or two after the 7/7/2005 bomb attack at Edgware Road there was a Hammersmith-Paddington shuttle on the H&C which I used as I was working at Shepherds Bush at the time. It terminated in P16 at Paddington Suburban and ran back wrong road with a pilotman as far as the crossover at Royal Oak.

[MoreToJack]

Indeed! I'm pretty sure this was also the last use of the former handworked Royal Oak crossover too - unless anyone can say otherwise?

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

[DWS]

Mar 1, 2020 22:02:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

Indeed! I'm pretty sure this was also the last use of the former handworked Royal Oak crossover too - unless anyone can say otherwise?

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

Has the Royal Oak crossover been removed ?

[tut]

Mar 1, 2020 22:08:49 GMT DWS said:

Mar 1, 2020 22:02:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

Indeed! I'm pretty sure this was also the last use of the former handworked Royal Oak crossover too - unless anyone can say otherwise?

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

Has the Royal Oak crossover been removed ?

It has, yes.

Mar 1, 2020 22:02:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

Indeed! I'm pretty sure this was also the last use of the former handworked Royal Oak crossover too - unless anyone can say otherwise?

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

That's interesting, where would the pilot working apply?

[Deleted]

Mar 1, 2020 22:08:49 GMT DWS said:

Mar 1, 2020 22:02:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

Indeed! I'm pretty sure this was also the last use of the former handworked Royal Oak crossover too - unless anyone can say otherwise?

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

Has the Royal Oak crossover been removed ?

Last weekend it was removed

[MoreToJack]

Mar 1, 2020 22:08:49 GMT DWS said:

Mar 1, 2020 22:02:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

Indeed! I'm pretty sure this was also the last use of the former handworked Royal Oak crossover too - unless anyone can say otherwise?

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

Has the Royal Oak crossover been removed ?

Replaced, of course, with one at Paddington - which has seen a lot of use since commissioning!

[MoreToJack]

Mar 1, 2020 22:14:43 GMT tut said:

Mar 1, 2020 22:02:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

There was briefly a plan to use it a couple of years back as part of a 4LM test weekend (albeit only from Royal Oak, so with Pilot Working but not very far), but it was shelved largely due to the 4LM delays.

That's interesting, where would the pilot working apply?

I am possibly misremembering, but I believe it was required to run from the eastbound platform to the westbound running line, as an unsignalled move.

It possibly wasn’t ‘Pilot Working’ per se, but simply a second competent member of staff.

[tut]

Mar 1, 2020 22:59:30 GMT MoreToJack said:

Mar 1, 2020 22:14:43 GMT tut said:

That's interesting, where would the pilot working apply?

I am possibly misremembering, but I believe it was required to run from the eastbound platform to the westbound running line, as an unsignalled move.

It possibly wasn’t ‘Pilot Working’ per se, but simply a second competent member of staff.

That makes a lot of sense. Remind me, do you require a second competent person for set back movements?

[MoreToJack]

No; set back movements do not require a second competent person on board the train, but in platform areas do require a competent person to manage the PTI.

[tut]

Thanks, as always