2012 Tube stock

[programmes1]

I have been given some rolling stock information upon closer inspection I found some sheets with car numbering for 2012 tube stock (Piccadilly) 93 trains.

12001(DM) 12201(T) 12401(UNDM) 12402(UNDM) 12202(T) 12002(DM) and so on until 

12185(DM) 12385(T) 12585(UNDM) 12586(UNDM) 12386(T) 12186(DM)

Anyone have any further details?

[steve98]

Aren't the 12001 - 12094 cars already in the 2009 (Victoria) line fleet?


Steve.

[norbitonflyer]

2012 stock? They,re unlikely to be here until 2024.

[MoreToJack]

Apr 18, 2020 18:22:44 GMT steve98 said:

Aren't the 12001 - 12094 cars already in the 2009 (Victoria) line fleet?


Steve.

Yes.

[fish7373]

Hi did you know the new Piccadilly line trains trailer cars will have no wheels to say

[Chris M]

Apr 19, 2020 0:52:53 GMT fish7373 said:

Hi did you know the new Piccadilly line trains trailer cars will have no wheels to say

If they have no wheels (presumably suspended from adjacent cars) can they really be described as "trailers", given that they wont be trailing along behind a powered car? e.g. a cantilevered child seat on a bicycle isn't a trailer, but one with its own wheel it; the rear portion of an articulated lorry is a "semi-trailer" as it is supported by the tractor unit at one end. </pedant>

[fish7373]

Apr 19, 2020 1:29:39 GMT Chris M said:

Apr 19, 2020 0:52:53 GMT fish7373 said:

Hi did you know the new Piccadilly line trains trailer cars will have no wheels to say

If they have no wheels (presumably suspended from adjacent cars) can they really be described as "trailers", given that they wont be trailing along behind a powered car? e.g. a cantilevered child seat on a bicycle isn't a trailer, but one with its own wheel it; the rear portion of an articulated lorry is a "semi-trailer" as it is supported by the tractor unit at one end. </pedant>

I should have said suspended between two motor cars.

[jimbo]

Apr 19, 2020 2:11:37 GMT fish7373 said:

Apr 19, 2020 1:29:39 GMT Chris M said:

If they have no wheels (presumably suspended from adjacent cars) can they really be described as "trailers", given that they wont be trailing along behind a powered car? e.g. a cantilevered child seat on a bicycle isn't a trailer, but one with its own wheel it; the rear portion of an articulated lorry is a "semi-trailer" as it is supported by the tractor unit at one end. </pedant>

I should have said suspended between two motor cars.

There must be a name for such cars, which are not unusual in modern tramcars although unknown on LU to date.

[jimbo]

Apr 18, 2020 13:12:45 GMT programmes1 said:

I have been given some rolling stock information upon closer inspection I found some sheets with car numbering for 2012 tube stock (Piccadilly) 93 trains.

12001(DM) 12201(T) 12401(UNDM) 12402(UNDM) 12202(T) 12002(DM) and so on until 

12185(DM) 12385(T) 12585(UNDM) 12586(UNDM) 12386(T) 12186(DM)

Anyone have any further details?

This is new info to me. It would be useful to date it, as it must precede finalisation of Vic. line 2009 stock numbering, made public by 2007 at least. 2012 tube stock must be the trains due to be commissioned by 2014 by TubeLines under their 2003 PPP contract. With resignalling, this was to provide a 19% capacity uplift, which with demand growth would have proved inadequate even by then, and LU now hope Picc resignalling will achieve a 60% uplift! TubeLines also looked after the Jubilee and Northern lines, and envisaged a new build of 1995 stock for the Picc line to minimise training and spares holdings. This info confirms for the first time that six car trains would have been retained, similar to current Picc trains rather than filling platforms to increase passenger capacity. The idea of numbering 2012 stock cars 12XXX follows 1996 stock being numbered 96XXX. Perhaps this was a Tubelines idea, rather than an LU one? To some extent the PPP agreement meant that LU had to take what it was given by Tubelines (and Metronet). The economics never worked out, and LU acquired TubeLines in 2010, postponing the Picc upgrade by a few years! We still await it, and have no anticipated completion date! This has no relation to the now planned new Picc trains.

[bigvern]

This was a Tube Lines idea as to a numbering scheme for the new Piccadilly fleet which was cancelled at the demise of Tube Lines by TfL
I did work on this project and did at the time look after Tube Lines Rolling stock fleet information.

The numbering was based around the trains being either a standard 6 car train or articulated as per a space train desidn was that each trailer car would have one bogie and a centre car which would technically have no wheels arrangement hence having a lot of cars as each would have to be shorter

The numbering was only a draft scheme to try and fit in with the fleets at the time, unbeknown to the numbering of the 09 and S stock which were developed by Bombardier.

it was drawn up around 2004/5 for the project team.

Two schemes were proposed for a standard 6 car replacement as per a 95 TS type train and the another for a possible articulated design, the 6 car train was considered first and then a new scheme for the 8/9 car articulated trains was produced, but can't remember that one from memory but did use the 12xxx numbers as well.

[bigvern]

Further to this the LU Standard at the time was to use a year identifier in the stocks numbering, this was obviously ignored by Metronet at the time,
A draft for the 09 stock was drawn up to be fully within the 9000 numbering range.

However nothing was communicated due to the Infracos working as separate entities.

[bigvern]

Tube Lines proposals were for 93 trains initially, however I think 103 were proposed as a maximum stock level to allow for passenger growth and new signalling with Heathrow Terminal 5.l


The initial idea was to procure trains like 95 Tube Stock which would have been quite a quick fix for the replacement,however things changed and more was required for passenger loadings so an articulated design was in the specification, as LU were developing a space train, this all went out to tender and had been reviewed,just before contract was to be awarded Tube Lines was brought back in house to save money and the project was axed completely.

[norbitonflyer]

Apr 19, 2020 9:37:30 GMT bigvern said:

Further to this the LU Standard at the time was to use a year identifier in the stocks numbering, this was obviously ignored by Metronet at the time,

This policy seems to have been applied to the 1992, 1995 and 1996 stocks, which had numbers in the 91xxx-93xxx (with every unit having one car in the 92xxx series), (9)5xxxx, and 96xxx series respectively. No new trains were delivered during the Metronet era, and although the (0)9 series was free for 2009 stock, neither 7 nor 8 were available for the S7 and S8 stocks as the D stock was still using them.

[programmes1]

I have had internet issues but all sorted.
The car number as others have said does take some of the Vic line numbers and looking I can't find a date but it must be before they agreed the Vic line.
The only other information it has is the document has the title Picc3-unit and there was to be 18 de-icing trailer cars.

[metman]

I thought there was a plan years ago to put the 1995 stock on the Piccadilly line and build a new fleet for the Northern Line to allow better services and the Battersea extension.

The idea of 6 car trains in a like for like basis would not have given sufficient capacity.

[t697]

Apr 28, 2020 13:26:24 GMT metman said:

I thought there was a plan years ago to put the 1995 stock on the Piccadilly line and build a new fleet for the Northern Line to allow better services and the Battersea extension.

The idea of 6 car trains in a like for like basis would not have given sufficient capacity.

I seem to recall various plans for trains of 1995TS style for the Picc, the actual 95TS or a new set. Basically that would be pretty much a functionally and size-wise like for like replacement of the 1973TS. New signalling would then provide the capacity increase through improved performance and train frequency.
Latterly issues of Accessibility and other factors have militated against the 6 long(ish) car schemes. Hence the more radical style trains now on order. Those trains will also be longer than the existing ones increasing line capacity a bit which will be handy since new signalling now looks a long way off.

[Tom]

No, please , no... not another train that doesn't fit around the existing infrastructure. We'll find (yet again) that it will give a trade-off between a few more passengers per train and the loss of a train berth somewhere along the line, with signal positioning optimised for trains of the existing length.

(Actually, bring it on - I had several years of gainful employment thanks to the individual that decided S stock should be longer than their predecessors!)

[t697]

I'm not directly involved but I think they will be no longer than the 7 car 1959TS the present fleet replaced. But I accept that doesn't necessarily eliminate some signalling change. If nothing else, the replacement of the last 33 1/3 Hz DEVs with something else.

[jimbo]

Looks like the 9-car version of 2012TS is finally to be built by Siemens for 2024! Does anyone have a numbering scheme for those cars, or when is it likely to appear? I think they are slightly shorter than the former trains of 1959TS on the line.

[Tom]

Apr 28, 2020 22:26:41 GMT t697 said:

I'm not directly involved but I think they will be no longer than the 7 car 1959TS the present fleet replaced. But I accept that doesn't necessarily eliminate some signalling change. If nothing else, the replacement of the last 33 1/3 Hz DEVs with something else.

Yes - we're already most of the way through eliminating the 10kHz Delta circuits and I had a discussion about doing the track circuit immunisation today. There's also talk of around 100 signals to alter/move as the cab sight lines will be worse than existing, just as we did for S stock.

[Deleted]

No more EBI200 tracks please

[t697]

I expect signal sighting rules were different when two person operated 1959TS ran on the Picc. Even allowing for the wider viewing cone from the 59TS driving position, there may have been station starter signals requiring some driver head movement to check. But of course the driver wasn't also checking the passengers and platform. Then there's 40 years or so of minor mods where the shorter 73TS was the prevailing train and the stopping position of the cab may have been further back. Now of course the the new trains' length and sightlines add to the issue. I'm only mildly surprised it's as many as 100 or so signals to amend.
Track circuit replacement is always fun, I see a vote for no EBI200s and I expect others would vote no FS2550 from early Met experience. Perhaps a simple 125Hz conversion would do. I've no axe to grind nor enough detailed knowledge to apply on that.

[PiccNT]

I was sort of aware that there are different types of track circuits and something peculiar with the circuits on the Rayners branch but that's as far as my knowledge goes. I know we're venturing off topic so maybe a track circuit thread should be created. Tom seems to be the guy in the know (amongst others I'm sure) but could someone post a laymans explanation as to the different types we have and why they need changing? Also, I presume you're talking about the Picc needing signal modification because of sighting. Particularly interested in this.

[Deleted]

Apr 30, 2020 8:14:33 GMT t697 said:

I expect signal sighting rules were different when two person operated 1959TS ran on the Picc. Even allowing for the wider viewing cone from the 59TS driving position, there may have been station starter signals requiring some driver head movement to check. But of course the driver wasn't also checking the passengers and platform. Then there's 40 years or so of minor mods where the shorter 73TS was the prevailing train and the stopping position of the cab may have been further back. Now of course the the new trains' length and sightlines add to the issue. I'm only mildly surprised it's as many as 100 or so signals to amend.
Track circuit replacement is always fun, I see a vote for no EBI200s and I expect others would vote no FS2550 from early Met experience. Perhaps a simple 125Hz conversion would do. I've no axe to grind nor enough detailed knowledge to apply on that.

They don't have the available relays to do a 125Hz conversion if only it was that simple

[Deleted]

Apr 30, 2020 9:10:30 GMT PiccNT said:

I was sort of aware that there are different types of track circuits and something peculiar with the circuits on the Rayners branch but that's as far as my knowledge goes. I know we're venturing off topic so maybe a track circuit thread should be created. Tom seems to be the guy in the know (amongst others I'm sure) but could someone post a laymans explanation as to the different types we have and why they need changing? Also, I presume you're talking about the Picc needing signal modification because of sighting. Particularly interested in this.

To name a few different versions

AC Capacitor Fed 125hz and 33 1/3 hz, North Ealing going up to South Harrow I believe are 33 1/3hz. This is what the Picc uses on the whole with the 125hz variant
AC Resistor Fed usually found in depots and sidings as they use either a non safety relay or an electronic card.
FS2500 first incarnation of Jointless Track Circuits (JTC) used on LU. Westinghouse design. Used on the Bakerloo, Central, Waterloo & City and Olympia branch of the District
FS2550 these use the same equipment on the track itself as a FS2500 its only the equipment in the room / kiosk is different. Westinghouse / Siemens design. Used on the Met, District, Victoria, Heathrow Terminal 5 extension and two tracks on the Bakerloo as a test. They were also used on the Jubilee Line Extension before TBTC.
EBI200 aka TI21 Bombarider's version of a JTC track circuit, mainly used on the national network when standing by the track you can hear a high pitch oscillating hum. Used on the District east of Upney and on the Wimbledon branch west of Putney Bridge. These tracks are used in both Jointed and Jointless mode you can definitely hear the difference without the rat and tat tat of going over block joints or fish plates east of Upney.
Delta Track Circuits were used as position detectors but they are basically a track circuit within a track circuit operating at 10Khz. Westinghouse/LT design. Used to be commonplace but not compatible with modern rolling stock, only left at Northfields, South Harrow and one at Harrow on the Hill, other lines have been replaced with Position Detectors designed by Frauscher or Siemens.

I'm sure there is another type of track circuit I believe was installed in Highgate Depot but for the life of me I can not think of what its called.

The trouble with 33 1/3hz track circuits is that it is too close to the operating frequency of certain circuits on the trains especially newer stock.

Just to give a couple of examples when they have moved 92 stock to Ealing Common Depot via Rayners Lane the unit needs to be dead and dragged in case it does cause interference with the track circuit. Potentially you have a scenario where the track will not shunt / operate correctly, hence why the trains are dragged by a tractor unit usually 62 stock

When the S Stock was being commissioned / tested originally they were banned east of Barking for the reason above during traffic hours as the track circuits east of Upney were still originally 33 1/3hz AC Cap tracks. To get them to Upminster Depot they were transferred in Engineering Hours and they had staff in certain rooms i.e Dagenham East IMR to see if the track circuits operated normally, and they did. But LU being LU decided to carry on with what was called the S stock immunization works.

This is the same reason why S stock are banned north of Hanger Lane Junction due to the track circuits still being 33 1/3hz. To actually get a train north of Hanger Lane Junction which is longer than a 73 stock a plunger needs to be operated by the train operator by signal WM20/21 as it will not clear if it detects a train longer then a 73 stock.

I'm sure Tom will add to this but this is a start in straight laymans terms as requested without going into too much detail

[PiccNT]

More to all of this than I imagined. Thanks for taking the time with the above explanation. I presume that the new Picc trains will be built bearing in mind that they have to run with our existing signalling for quite some time so they will be compliant in terms of the track circuits. Would be nice to think that anyway.

[Deleted]

Well Bombardier didn't when producing the S stock

Now you would of thought Metronet at the time and LU/TfL would of gone to the train manufacturers and said its' got to be this long, this wide, got to work on this traction voltage, got to work with these signalling systems etc etc etc. But no it was like the other way round it was like Bombardier said to Metronet LU/TfL this is what you are getting, crack on

[t697]

It's not as simple as that. The trains' line filter inductors and capacitors would have to be very significantly bigger and heavier for the modern trains to be compatible with 33Hz track circuits. That would waste energy throughout the trains' life and compromise other aspects of the train design. The economically sensible compromise has been to specify for compatibility with 125Hz and above and renew the 33Hz track circuits. This time for the Picc that will just be Rayners Lane to Hangar Lane Junction, the last remaining 33Hz area on LUL. Plus the Delta track replacements nearly done already as described earlier in the thread.

[Deleted]

Not strictly true there is still 33 1/3hz areas around just none of them are supplying the feed to the track circuits any longer once the Picc gets modified in whatever way they decide.

The rest of the circuitry for things like point indications, signal selections apart from the GR (G - Signal R- Relay) and auxiliary circuits will still be fed by the 33 1/3hz supply

[t697]

Fair enough, I did mean the actual track circuits rather than other 33 1/3Hz fed equipment. I think the point still stands that it is not economic to build modern trains compatible with 33 1/3Hz track circuits and overall their replacement makes more sense. Hope good products and good installation get selected.