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Post by grumpycat on May 10, 2020 13:30:57 GMT
Apparently from what i have heard there is still a mk1 72 on the bakerloo is this true by any chance?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 13:45:46 GMT
There's three complete trains on the Bakerloo, plus a three-car, plus a four car half MkI and half MkII. All combined make units 3264-3267 and 3564-3567.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 10, 2020 19:50:49 GMT
Do they still have the former Northern Line interiors, in particular I remember comment that the logos on the wall panels are black somethings rather than the brown Bakerloo motif.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 10, 2020 21:21:44 GMT
The former Northern Line units do have the charcoal interior panels in place but have brown grab rails and seat dividers.
The former mk1 cars are
3264-4264-4364-3364 (ex 3203-4203-4303-3303)
3464-4564-3564 (ex 3401-4501-3501)
3265-4265-4365-3365 (ex 3218-4218-4318-3318)
3465-4565-3565 (ex 3407-4507-3507)
3267-4267-4367-3367 (ex 3210-4210-4310-3310)
3467-4567-3567 (ex 3412-4512-3512)
Also
3466-4566-3566 (ex 3424-4524-3524)
3266-4266 (ex 4324-3324 turned and converted to A end)
To fill in the blanks 4366-3366 renumbered from existing Mk2 cars 4349-3349 and 3299-4299-4399-3399 renumbered from existing Mk2 cars 3357-4357-4257 and 3439 by turning the former middle motor 3357 into A end driving motor 3299 and former UNDM 3439 into 3399.
The 1972 stock runs in a 7 car formation
(A)DM-T-T-DM+UNDM-T-DM(D)
DM- driving motor
T - trailer
UNDM - uncoupling non driving motor
On the Bakerloo the A end faces south and the D end faces north to simply coupling at Stonebridge Park depot - basically the 33XX middle motor still has its main traction brake control (TBC) which is preferred to the small shunting controls in the cabinet at the end of the UNDM.
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North End
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Post by North End on May 10, 2020 22:07:11 GMT
Do they still have the former Northern Line interiors, in particular I remember comment that the logos on the wall panels are black somethings rather than the brown Bakerloo motif. Yes that’s the main distinguishing feature. However only on 65 to 67, as 64 IIRC went to the Bakerloo before refurbishment. At one point the floor was different, but I don’t think that’s the case now. |
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Post by bigvern on May 10, 2020 22:48:40 GMT
One big difference with the 72mk1 is the doors have been replaced from bottom rollers to top hung doors, the window seals are rubber on these cars.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 11, 2020 13:36:37 GMT
Yes there were a few changes from mk1 to Mk2 stock the doors being hung differently (now amended as described) and also the compressor type differed from Reavell Maudsley TBC38Z to the Westinghouse 3HC43 (also changed with spare D stock compressors).
The front M doors were changed so the set number box was filled although I know at least one Mk1 car has the box still in place and painted over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 17:04:50 GMT
Wasn't the MK1 also Driver and Guard?
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Post by t697 on May 12, 2020 17:59:03 GMT
Wasn't the MK1 also Driver and Guard? Yes. As I understood it, the 72 Mk1s were aimed firmly at the Northern line and indeed most of them ran on the NL until scrapped as the line changed over to 1995TS and One Person Operation. 72 Mk2 were aimed at being moved around and went from the Northern to the original Jubilee line when it opened. They were also built with several other 'provisions for' ATO/ATC assuming it would be similar to the 67TS scheme. Another difference was that the maximum motor field weakening on Mk1s gave a slower performance than the Mk2s. Perhaps someone will enlighten us on whether this has been amended on the Mk1s now on the Bakerloo or whether they've just been set to 'as close as possible'. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 12, 2020 18:14:28 GMT
Both versions were crew operated when introduced.
The story of the 1972 stock goes back to 1969, when a long-term dispute at Acton Works caused a shortage of air compressors for 1938 stock. This caused serious issues for the Northern line with up to 40 trains each day cancelled and a number of trains short formed with 6 cars rather than seven. Horace Cutler (later to become leader of the GLC) took a rush-hour trip on the line in May 1970 to see how bad it was for himself, and on his return to County Hall there was a bit of an uproar. This resulted in LT ordering 30 trains of 1972 (Mark 1) Stock in July 1970. Due to the urgency of the order a number of features from 1967 stock were retained, including the lack of side doors to the cab.
However, there was then a problem at Metro-Cammell as there was no work available for them from the end of the 1972 Stock order and the start of manufacture of 1973 Stock, which was going to be a bit longer based on the fact that they were of a new design. To keep Metro-Cammell afloat LT then ordered a further 33 trains of 1972 Mark 2 stock, the idea being that they would go immediately to the Northern line to allow some 1938 Stock to be scrapped before the 1956/59 Stock was available, which would happen when they were displaced from the Piccadilly by the 1973 Stock.
It also meant that they could supply the Jubilee line with it's own new(ish) fleet when it opened in 1977 (as planned), as by then enough 1973 Stock would be available to free up the last of the 1959s on the Piccadilly, and then when the Jubilee line gained its own purpose built fleet (which was then supposed to be 1978 Tube Stock, but eventually arrived as 1983 Stock) they could go to the Bakerloo giving it a modern fleet to replace 1938 stock there.
As Jackson and Croome wrote: Who could resist spending a little more public money to achieve such eminently desirable ends?
What actually happened was that 1983 Stock displaced 1972 Mark 2 stock back to the Northern line and 1959 stock from the Northern to the Bakerloo enabling the elimination of 1938 Stock from the Bakerloo... but then the desire came to convert the Bakerloo line to One Person Operation (no doubt assuming that this would be achievable without new trains, unlike on the Northern line). This meant that the 1959s on the Bakerloo were swapped with 1972 Mark 2 stock, which were then converted for OPO.
For the rest of the story I would recommend the February 2020 edition of Underground News, which gives more detail of what went where and when.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 12, 2020 18:29:46 GMT
72 Mk2 were aimed at being moved around and went from the Northern to the original Jubilee line when it opened. They had a brief spell on the Bakerloo just before the Jubilee opened. I read somewhere (probably on this forum) that at least one of them made it to Watford Junction. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 12, 2020 19:31:29 GMT
They did indeed, 1977-1979.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 12, 2020 20:04:06 GMT
As Jackson and Croome wrote: Who could resist spending a little more public money to achieve such eminently desirable ends? Oh how times change. Due to the non-political nature of this forum I will refrain from expressing whether I feel this has been a positive or negative change. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 20:43:01 GMT
They did indeed, 1977-1979. I seem to recall they had red doors??? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 12, 2020 20:56:00 GMT
They did indeed, 1977-1979. I seem to recall they had red doors??? MkII had red doors, MkI unpainted |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 12, 2020 22:36:35 GMT
Other visible differences: Detail
| 1972 Mark 1
| 1972 Mark 2
| Moquette
| Grey | Blue
| Doors
| Unpainted | Red | Fleet name
| UNDERGROUND | Solid red roundel
| Train Number Plates
| Centre of M Door
| Offside window
| Cab front
| No handrails
| Handrails and step plates
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I'm sure there were other differences in the cab, but these are the ones that would be obvious from the outside. Others please feel free to add!
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Post by jimbo on May 13, 2020 0:25:42 GMT
I seem to recall they had red doors??? MkII had red doors, MkI unpainted Why red doors? We had got used to silver trains which saved a lot of repainting, and a big weight saving in the time of lead paints. This hadn't been thought through, and waiting for doors to be painted and dried, 78 per train, held up production, with complete trains waiting for doors! It wasn't repeated with 1973TS, 1983TS and D stock, where a red band across the cab front sufficed. Then came the painted trains innovation, which is another story! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 13, 2020 5:35:39 GMT
MkII had red doors, MkI unpainted Why red doors? It is now a requirement that doors are in a contrasting colour. Could this have been an early experiment in that direction? In the early days, when both Mark 1s and mark 2s ran on the same (Northern) Line it did make it easy to tell them apart, but whether there was any operational advantage in being able to do so? |
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Post by pgb on May 13, 2020 6:44:41 GMT
The story of the 1972 stock goes back to 1969, when a long-term dispute at Acton Works caused a shortage of air compressors for 1938 stock. Curiosity has got the better of me - what was the long term dispute? I take it, that it did cause issues with more than just the supply of compressors?? |
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Post by t697 on May 13, 2020 6:57:54 GMT
It is now a requirement that doors are in a contrasting colour. Could this have been an early experiment in that direction? In the early days, when both Mark 1s and mark 2s ran on the same (Northern) Line it did make it easy to tell them apart, but whether there was any operational advantage in being able to do so? The story I heard back in the day just a few years after the trains were built was that the Mk2's doors were painted to deal with a poor surface appearance of them when unpainted. And something about a different supplier or different material/construction compared with 67s and 72Mk1s. But it could have been experimentation in visual contrast as postulated, or an early toe in the water of a new livery I suppose. I thought they looked quite good like that. |
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Post by t697 on May 13, 2020 7:00:00 GMT
The story of the 1972 stock goes back to 1969, when a long-term dispute at Acton Works caused a shortage of air compressors for 1938 stock. Curiosity has got the better of me - what was the long term dispute? I take it, that it did cause issues with more than just the supply of compressors?? Not sure about the dispute particulars, I think it affected the whole Works. Someone commented that wheelsets lasted longer or were made to run longer during the dispute! |
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Post by 100andthirty on May 13, 2020 7:11:06 GMT
I was there at the time and t697 is on the right lines. Two decisions made for different reasons came together.
The 1972 mk11 was delivered with red doors.
The first decision was that the design gurus decreed that painting the directed would help people with visual impairment to identify the doorways......an early precursor to the contrast requirements in the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations by about 20 years.
The second decision was made a couple of years earlier. All post war tube stock had doors that were cast (pouring molten metal into a door shaped mould). These were comparatively heavy. With the desire to use top hung doors on the mk11, it was thought useful to reduce door mass (a general benefit in any case) and a change to a fabricated construction (aluminium sections and sheet welded together) was implemented.
During manufacture, it proved to be hard to get the brushed aluminium finish to look right; signs of welding remained visible. Thus the decision to paint the doors came as a considerable relief!
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Post by spsmiler on May 13, 2020 8:59:14 GMT
really interesting - I've often wondered about the red doors - and Mk1 on the Bakerloo. Once the lockdown is over I shall try to find some of them.
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Post by John Tuthill on May 13, 2020 9:58:34 GMT
I was there at the time and t697 is on the right lines. Two decisions made for different reasons came together. The 1972 mk11 was delivered with red doors. The first decision was that the design gurus decreed that painting the directed would help people with visual impairment to identify the doorways......an early precursor to the contrast requirements in the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations by about 20 years. The second decision was made a couple of years earlier. All post war tube stock had doors that were cast (pouring molten metal into a door shaped mould). These were comparatively heavy. With the desire to use top hung doors on the mk11, it was thought useful to reduce door mass (a general benefit in any case) and a change to a fabricated construction (aluminium sections and sheet welded together) was implemented. During manufacture, it proved to be hard to get the brushed aluminium finish to look right; signs of welding remained visible. Thus the decision to paint the doors came as a considerable relief! I always thought it ironic. Aluminium cars were brought it to save weight, and thus reduce power requirements. Sadly the graffiti scum changed all that. And has been said the finish never weathered. RM664 is another classic example. I used to know someone who worked at Acton, sadly he's no longer with us, and he made the comment: "Looks like LT have found some weightless paint." |
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metman
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Post by metman on May 14, 2020 6:28:09 GMT
Other visible differences: Detail
| 1972 Mark 1
| 1972 Mark 2
| Moquette
| Grey | Blue
| Doors
| Unpainted | Red | Fleet name
| UNDERGROUND | Solid red roundel
| Train Number Plates
| Centre of M Door
| Offside window
| Cab front
| No handrails
| Handrails and step plates
|
I'm sure there were other differences in the cab, but these are the ones that would be obvious from the outside. Others please feel free to add!
The mark 2 stock also had calling on lights like the 1967 stock, again linked to the desire for future automatic operation in the distant future. I understand the mark 1 and 2 batches were not compatible when first built, and it was only when the mark 2 stock started to be cascaded from the Jubilee to Norrhern after the first batch of 1983 stock arrived did some amendments get carried out to allow interoperability. There is a photo online with a mixed mk1 and 2 train (within the same unit!) somewhere. Very interesting about the red doors. I read the DRU (Design research unit) had some involvement in this but didn’t know the technical reason, you learn something new everyday..... |
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Post by t697 on May 14, 2020 6:54:09 GMT
I seem to recall the traction equipments on Mk1s having imperial threads and metric on Mk2s, leading to all sorts of troubles when both were on the same line...
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Post by 100andthirty on May 15, 2020 7:31:26 GMT
I was there at the time and t697 is on the right lines. Two decisions made for different reasons came together. The 1972 mk11 was delivered with red doors. The first decision was that the design gurus decreed that painting the directed would help people with visual impairment to identify the doorways......an early precursor to the contrast requirements in the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations by about 20 years. The second decision was made a couple of years earlier. All post war tube stock had doors that were cast (pouring molten metal into a door shaped mould). These were comparatively heavy. With the desire to use top hung doors on the mk11, it was thought useful to reduce door mass (a general benefit in any case) and a change to a fabricated construction (aluminium sections and sheet welded together) was implemented. During manufacture, it proved to be hard to get the brushed aluminium finish to look right; signs of welding remained visible. Thus the decision to paint the doors came as a considerable relief! I always thought it ironic. Aluminium cars were brought it to save weight, and thus reduce power requirements. Sadly the graffiti scum changed all that. And has been said the finish never weathered. RM664 is another classic example. I used to know someone who worked at Acton, sadly he's no longer with us, and he made the comment: "Looks like LT have found some weightless paint." At least the cast doors used aluminium! Apropos mass of paint, a late, much lamented senior colleague told me that as a young engineer he had been tasked with calculating how much weight would be saved if the trains were unpainted. He went to the paint shop and asked the paint foreman how many tins of paint would be used to paint a car...primer, undercoat, top coat and varnish. Then he weighed a tin of each type of paint and weighed an empty tin. Then he subtracted the weight of the empty tin from the weight of the full tin to get the weight of the paint. Multiply by the number of tins and you have the weight of the paint. This figure of weight saved per car was often quoted as the benefit of unpainted trains. By now you will have realised the fallacy, which occurred to him some time later.....he said. This calculation included the weight of all the solvent that evaporates as the paint dries! The actual figure was much smaller. That's the story as he told it although he was noted for "spinning a yarn". |
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Post by t697 on May 15, 2020 10:16:12 GMT
And indeed the paint left in the brushes or wasted in spray that missed the car. Was it mostly brush painting at that time?
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Post by grumpycat on May 18, 2020 16:32:55 GMT
72 Mk2 were aimed at being moved around and went from the Northern to the original Jubilee line when it opened. They had a brief spell on the Bakerloo just before the Jubilee opened. I read somewhere (probably on this forum) that at least one of them made it to Watford Junction. ah yes I saw a few photos of them at Croxley green depot |
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Post by grumpycat on May 18, 2020 16:36:43 GMT
ah so I recall looking and mentioned rubber window frames so i think i have accidentally been on one
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