Keys (J, reverser, control etc)

[aidancroft]

Hiya!



I was wondering if I could possibly pick your brains? I've viewed the forum and couldn't find much on keys.

How many exist? I believe ALL stock use J door keys but in the cab, how many types exist? I've seen control/reverser keys but from 1978 stock onwards did everything use the same typical "key looking" type key?



I'm fascinated by the differences. I'm also aware of a guard's key that looks similar to a control key.



Kind regards,



Aidan.

[rincew1nd]

Welcome to the forum, an interesting question!

With my admin hat on could I just ask that any replies relating to current stock is kept vauge?

[aidancroft]

I'm after a list of how many types existed.

I know of guard's key then control/reverser for all early stuff, with RKL220 for later stuff except S and 2009 stock that again has its own key.

Is that a complete list? Are J door keys used on ALL stock?

Aidan.

[MoreToJack]

All current passenger stock (as well as many items that aren't current passenger rolling stock) use a J door key, although I'm not comfortable with saying what they use them for.

I can't comment on any other train keys, although I am aware that there were fairly universal keys up until the appearance of 'modern' stock.

[philthetube]

S Stock has a modern looking key, one of those with little holes drilled in it, (not all the way through)
no idea about victoria line but will be some form of modern key
95/96 stock use a key which looks much like a yale, though it isnt.
no idea about central line stock
I think all others use a control and reverser key but wouldn't make promises about the pic
also pretty sure the 421 in the isle of wight still use control and reverser key (38 stock).

It wouldn't surprise me it the 72 stock still has a use for a guards key somewhere, A stock had until it's retirement.

[jimbo]

Don't forget, for most of their life the District line R stock guard had to use two keys, one for the position, and one to open or close the doors, moving it from side to side for each platform as appropriate! Both the size of spanners.

[Tom]

You still need a position switch key for certain functions (I'm not going to say which) on 1972 stock.

[Tom]

Jun 28, 2020 1:29:58 GMT philthetube said:

95/96 stock use a key which looks much like a yale, though it isnt.

They are actually manufactured by Yale. The same key was used for all stocks from D stock until the arrival of 2009 Stock.

[jimbo]

Before J door keys were introduced, a guard's or motorman's position/control key would open them.

[Chris M]

So far it seems the list of keys is:

• Standard J door key
• Yale-type key
• Traditional control/reverser key
• Traditional guards key (position)
• Traditional guards key (door operation)
• RKL220 (is this one of the types already mentioned?)
  
• S-stock key
• 2009 stock key (maybe the same as the S-stock key?)

Have I understood that right?

[Dstock7080]

Jun 28, 2020 13:13:38 GMT Chris M said:

So far it seems the list of keys is:

• Standard J door key
• Yale-type key
• Traditional control/reverser key
• Traditional guards key (position)
• Traditional guards key (door operation)
• RKL220 (is this one of the types already mentioned?)
  
• S-stock key
• 2009 stock key (maybe the same as the S-stock key?)

Have I understood that right?

Yale type key, is RKL220
Control and Reverser key are two separate, different sizes
"Traditional guards key (door operation)" were only for R Stock

(2009 Stock is the same as S Stock)

[Chris L]

The doors on trains are identified by a letter.

J is one such letter.

[aidancroft]

Jun 28, 2020 17:06:49 GMT Chris L said:

The doors on trains are identified by a letter.

J is one such letter.

I have a J door key. I know someone on the Underground so I know exactly what it does!!

[bassmike]

Jun 28, 2020 13:41:21 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Jun 28, 2020 13:13:38 GMT Chris M said:

So far it seems the list of keys is:

• Standard J door key
• Yale-type key
• Traditional control/reverser key
• Traditional guards key (position)
• Traditional guards key (door operation)
• RKL220 (is this one of the types already mentioned?)
  
• S-stock key
• 2009 stock key (maybe the same as the S-stock key?)

Have I understood that right?

Yale type key, is RKL220
Control and Reverser key are two separate, different sizes
"Traditional guards key (door operation)" were only for R Stock

(2009 Stock is the same as S Stock)

The old guard's key (T shaped i think with square semi-tapered shank) was also used on R T buses and called a budget key. It fitted the conductors box and several of the hatches around the vehicle.

[jimbo]

Jun 28, 2020 18:25:44 GMT bassmike said:

Jun 28, 2020 13:41:21 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Yale type key, is RKL220
Control and Reverser key are two separate, different sizes
"Traditional guards key (door operation)" were only for R Stock

(2009 Stock is the same as S Stock)

The old guard's key (T shaped i think with square semi-tapered shank) was also used on R T buses and called a budget key. It fitted the conductors box and several of the hatches around the vehicle.

Not so! The traditional guard's key was a heavy spanner type, similar to the two motorman's keys. The busman's key was not used by train crew. Perhaps in depots?

[philthetube]

Jun 28, 2020 21:02:01 GMT jimbo said:

Jun 28, 2020 18:25:44 GMT bassmike said:

The old guard's key (T shaped i think with square semi-tapered shank) was also used on R T buses and called a budget key. It fitted the conductors box and several of the hatches around the vehicle.

Not so! The traditional guard's key was a heavy spanner type, similar to the two motorman's keys. The busman's key was not used by train crew. Perhaps in depots?

These were pretty standard on buses around the country, often known as T keys.

[Chris L]

Jun 29, 2020 1:52:25 GMT philthetube said:

Jun 28, 2020 21:02:01 GMT jimbo said:

Not so! The traditional guard's key was a heavy spanner type, similar to the two motorman's keys. The busman's key was not used by train crew. Perhaps in depots?

These were pretty standard on buses around the country, often known as T keys.

The J door key is a slightly different shape to the T key

[Deleted]

From memory the T key has a greater taper at one end then a J door.

Did the T key have a solid ball at one of the points / ends

[Tom]

Yes, and a different style lock on the other side of the T to open the conductor's lockers on crew operated buses.

[Tom]

Jun 28, 2020 3:50:14 GMT jimbo said:

Don't forget, for most of their life the District line R stock guard had to use two keys, one for the position, and one to open or close the doors, moving it from side to side for each platform as appropriate! Both the size of spanners.

That's actually an interesting idea - almost like an early form of Correct Side Door Enable where the guard had to physically take the key to open the doors, thus acting as more of a reminder to check they were on the right side of the train before doing so.

[brigham]

The taper-square T-shaped key is generically known as a 'carriage key'.
It actually pre-dates railways.

[rincew1nd]

Jun 29, 2020 18:34:10 GMT brigham said:

The taper-square T-shaped key is generically known as a 'carriage key'.
It actually pre-dates railways.

I was pondering this, I know of carriage keys which are a tapered square. I have some historic carriage keys, some with ornate circular handles.

The modern versions lack a taper and have additional security measures, and have a T shaped handle so are referred to as T-keys. I wasn't sure if the T-Key referred to here was the same, given that J-door keys exist.

[jimbo]

Jun 29, 2020 18:31:55 GMT Tom said:

Jun 28, 2020 3:50:14 GMT jimbo said:

Don't forget, for most of their life the District line R stock guard had to use two keys, one for the position, and one to open or close the doors, moving it from side to side for each platform as appropriate! Both the size of spanners.

That's actually an interesting idea - almost like an early form of Correct Side Door Enable where the guard had to physically take the key to open the doors, thus acting as more of a reminder to check they were on the right side of the train before doing so.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The guards got to know there are three on the left then one on the right, etc. So they would close the doors, then lift the key out to the other side instead of just sitting down. If they had counted wrong there is still the risk of watching that pretty lady, day-dreaming as they open up. Must have been a nuisance when platform on both sides, i.e. Barking EB.

[rincew1nd]

Jun 29, 2020 21:05:23 GMT jimbo said:

there was still the risk of watching that pretty lady, day-dreaming as they open up...

Without wishing to open up the whole Moorgate thing, wasn't the Guard on the train "collecting papers" at the time?

[jimbo]

The official procedure was for the guard to open his own door as the train came to a halt to allow him to check the platform was in order to open all doors, then to look back to check all doors were in the platform or cut them out. After closing all passenger doors when clear and signal green, the guard then hang out of his door to check all was in order as the train departed. Of course if cold or raining, these checks might be shortened!

[Tom]

Jun 29, 2020 22:37:03 GMT rincew1nd said:

Without wishing to open up the whole Moorgate thing, wasn't the Guard on the train "collecting papers" at the time?

Yes, to quote from the accident report: "...he admitted that he had left his position at the leading end of the last car shortly after the train left Old Street and that he had gone into the rear driving cab to look for a newspaper. As he returned, he paused near the leading double door bay and was reading the advertisements when he was suddenly aware that the train was entering Moorgate station..."